All For One: Effect on the Northeast ski industry?

[Greg]

Well, the beloved All For One pass is obviously a thing of the past. Perhaps now is a good time to reflect and discuss exactly how the A41 affected the Northeast ski industry, if at all. One result in my opinion is the cheapo A41 passes established an unrealistic expectation in terms of what's a fair season pass price, as well as a sense of entitlement. Please discuss.

I recall some threads on how this all might play out a few years ago when the A41 was first introduced. I'll try to find some of those discussions.

 

[Greg]

Here are a few:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/5269-will-ski-industry-reap-benefits-all-one-pass-real-costs.html
http://forums.alpinezone.com/2204-idea-ski-resort-marketing-strategy.html

Interesting to read opinions from a few years ago.

 

[thetrailboss]

It boils down to this:

For consumers: the A41 was an unprecedented program that will probably never again be replicated....at least not anytime soon. It was very cheap, very flexible, and covered a HUGE market. People from Bangah' to NJ owned the same pass. In terms of product, it was huge. Price was simply unbeatable. It depressed the marketplace and forced other resorts to come up with similar products, in terms of reciprocity, etc. It really was a good thing for consumers in that light. However, it has created high expectations in terms of pricing. As has been said before, season passes used to be very expensive, but now $500gets you a lot of options. The prices we are seeing now are much higher, but probably for inflation adjusted, at the same level if not lower than in the past...

For resorts: it really hurt. Lots of places were forced to rethink their products and pricing. A41 cut into the "I ski 10 days a season and ski around" market. It did EXPAND the season pass base though....more folks buy them now. Cut into revenues as well. Also created some interesting relationships/alliances (Stratton and Okemo, Jay and others, etc).

Overall: major changes in who gets a pass, what that pass gets you, and how much that pass costs.

 

[ctenidae]

Never bought one, never paid much attention to the price of that or any other season pass. I'm a "Ski Arounder", so all I really care about are day prices. Interestingly, it doesn't appear the A41 has any affect on those.

 

[snowmonster]

Having started this sport relatively recently, I can credit the All For One Pass with getting me started and keeping me interested in the sport.

One barrier to entry that every athlete faces when taking up a new sport is cost. Some sports have a low barrier to entry insofar as cost is concerned so it's relatively easy to get into (like soccer or running). Skiing, specifically alpine skiing, has a lot of costs associated with it not only for equipment but also venue.

When I started out, I pegged a ceiling for skiing related costs. The fact that the pass was relatively cheap made it easier for me to justify indulging in the sport. The fact that I could amortize the cost of the pass over time and make it pay for itself was also a good incentive. So, with the All For One, it was easy for me to get into the sport and get hooked.

Now I know there are those who will take the position that the All For One is responsible for overcrowding the slopes and getting more gapers on the slopes. To which I reply, well, it's the new blood in the sport that keeps this industry moving along. I hope that the ski industry keeps pass prices relatively reasonable.

 

[Newpylong]

Dunno about the mountains but I saw a ton of people (families) this year that told me they could afford to go out as much as they did because of the cheap passes. With the All4one going the way of the steam engine, there are lots of mountains trying to pick up the pieces (skiers). So far, in southern VT, Peak Resort's pricing was tremendously bold and comparative to the All4one and from what I hear, they have had enormous volume in pass sales thus far.

 

[JimG.]

Everyone loves cheap...except businesses trying to sell.

And cheap begets cheap.

I view the A41 as a desperate play by a doomed company. I believe it has had a far reaching effect on eastern skiing and skier's expectations.

And from this point forward I believe there are going to be alot of more unhappy skiers and ski areas...and a few who make out too. The trick is to ski at those places.

I forsee another ASC-like consolodation in the next 10-15 years...inevitable in my book. Who knows how that will play out, it's scary to consider.

 

[threecy]

Positive - in that it's gone! In many ways it was a negative blow to both the industry and it's customers.

 

[Greg]

This is sort of apropos to the discussion:

The value you've come to enjoy with the All For One® Pass will live on next year in a new season pass at the home of the most dependable snow in New England. Make sure you've signed up for the Snowtalk Newsletter to stay on top of the latest news.

http://www.sundayriver.com/seasonpass.html

 

[JimG.]

This is sort of apropos to the discussion:



http://www.sundayriver.com/seasonpass.html

Ah yes, the vultures are circling the dying animal. Sunday River is the first to dive bomb and snatch a morsel.

Good for BobR and the SR crew.

Sucks for others that you'll have to drive twice as far for the deal though.

 

[Vortex]

I'm waiting to see what all that verbage really means. This was posted beore the sale was announced. Potential for a fire storm.

 

[Greg]

I'm waiting to see what all that verbage really means. This was posted beore the sale was announced. Potential for a fire storm.

Oh! Could mean nothing then. Other than Alex better update that page...

 

[DJAK]

Oh! Could mean nothing then. Other than Alex better update that page...

Have no worries gentlemen.
The statement still applies, though it intentionally leaves a reasonable amount of wiggle room. I don't write copy that paints the resort into a corner. You've seen enough AZ challenges to know that.

 

[Greg]

Have no worries gentlemen.
The statement still applies, though it intentionally leaves a reasonable amount of wiggle room. I don't write copy that paints the resort into a corner. You've seen enough AZ challenges to know that.

Ha! I love it. Thanks for replying!

 

[Vortex]

Wow nice post AK. Pass price talk had died off a bit until k prices were announced. I'll wait.

 

[Vortex]

Only difference for me was the All4one was my secondary pass. Gave me some variety. Just one pass this year. I really only skied Sunday River on it with 3 days at the Loaf and one at Attitash.
The plan was to extend my season get out early and stay as late as possible. The River and the Loaf did stertch the season this year. Got to give them a bit of credit here. Wildcats efforts got me another weekend post SR and Sugarloafs closing. Never made it to K Mt snow or Pico.

 

[hammer]

We typically ski 18 days a year. The A41 didn't increase that any, but on those early season days where only 2 routes were open, it did get us to go. Normally, we wouldn't pay $40 for 2 routes down a mountain.

The A41 did sorta dictate which mountain we skiied at, but we did do a few others also. This year, we are getting a package from Ski NH, since we live in NH, and we'll try the various mountains in state. We'll likely spend about the same $$$ as with the A41, and ski about as much.

That's our personal situation.

I had heard that there were many who bought an A41 and didn't use it at all, or enough to break even. That, theoretically, could have made that a real money maker out of the A41. Has anyone got the hard facts on that?

SkiNH is no longer the deal it used to be. The cheaper passes for some smaller areas (Pats, Crotched) were a bargain at $20, but the price is up to $35 now. That's still a discount for the adult ticket rates, but not for the teen/child passes. Larger areas are at $45, which is still a really good deal compared to adult rates...you just need to be willing to buy at least 20 tickets (which may not be a problem for most). Also, the passes are not transferable between areas (e.g. once you buy a pass for Sunapee you have to use it there).

I was hoping to get the SkiNH passes again this year, but the real advantage was that they were worthwhile for the whole family...not so anymore. May just end up getting a local area midweek/night pass and hunting for individual discounts/deals for weekends.

I'm actually wondering if the demise of the cheap A41 passes will have a ripple effect on daily ticket discounts as well...people will be hunting for individual discounts instead of buying a season pass, so the discounts will be smaller.

 

[snoseek]

like bobr said the a41 was a secondary pass-money i may not have spent but eas such a good deal. turned lots of people on to the sport (very much needed). and brought a much more diverse crowd(also needed imo). i think in the coming years the industry will see some kind of benefit from the a41 because more people like snowmonster are now hooked.

 

[Vortex]

I think you will see more discount specials.

It will be a supply and demand issue again. Everyone wanting a piece of the pie, when pass sales slow, which I really think will happen. getting a pass is alot of money. Folks were doing it when prices were cheap. That is how I came back into the sport 8 years ago.

When they look at the price of Gas and the pass prices going up... If your not a real dire hard or able to absorb the hit.. (nice way of saying cost is just not a issue to your budget) Proof will be at the end of next year. I expect a down turn in skier visits.

 

[drjeff]

I truely think that this isn't an issue that will play out completely for 2 or 3 seasons. The A41 basically cut in half(if not more) the number of days to break even, and created an entirely new type of pass with selected weekend days blacked out(basically the "old school" pass folks around will remember that a pass used to be $1000-$1200 and was good either everyday or just weekdays in many cases). We have to remember though that while many non ASC ski areas followed suit with a discount/blacked out pass, not all did.

What I suspect we'll be seeing over the next few seasons is some "tweaking" of the pass prices/blackout days to the point where a non blacked out pass will probably drift its way up to the 15 or so day break even point, and a blackout pass will likely end up in the 8 to 10 day range with somewhere in the 10 to 15 days black out range. This won't happen overnight since to drastic a change will cut into the business too much too soon, but a gradual adjust combined with some slow, but steady on-hill improvements (to justify the extra $$ for the pass) will likely be heading our way. Afterall, with our A41's we knew that we'd be getting an inexpensive pass, but no significant on hill improvements year to year. Now, could you honestly say that if you see some SIGNIFICANT ON HILL improvements (i.e. real snowmaking upgrades, new lifts, etc) that you'd really gripe about adding an extra day or two's day ticket price to a season pass?? Doubtful, and many folks would have that view too I'd bet.

I'd bet that if we resurrected this thead in June of 2010, that'd it would be a real interesting read to see what's happened!