AlpineZone Ski Area Challenge: Attitash Bear Peak

[trailbiscuit]

The big issue is marketing vs. reality. In reality, the predominant mid-winter condition in the East is "Machine Groomed," which is a great, but firm, surface to ski. But, packed powder looks better on the trail report. Often times, the ski patrol on their morning report will list "machine groomed", but marketing will change it to "packed powder", as marketing is generally responsible for issuing snow reports. So, the ski area exaggerates.

But, the skiers also exaggerate. "I heard a noise under my skis...IT"S TOO ICY!" Sven is dead on...it's not ice. It's hardpack. The problem is that skiers don't know the difference. They bought their ticket thinking packed powder, but ended up skiing on well traveled machine groomed. If the ski areas educated people as to true condition definitions and actually reported as such, guests would be more prepared for the type of conditions they encounter and complain less about ice. If you think you're getting fluff and end up with scratchy, of course, you're going to complain. The problem is that it is extremely unlikely that the ski areas will ever actually get together to report true conditions. After all, they're all competing for your lift ticket dollar. (Which is also unfortunate because happy skiers breed more skiers, but that's another story.)

Incidentally, SnoCountry, the quasi-governing body for snow reporting, maintains official definitions for snow conditions, but they are still liberally used.

I'll get off the soapbox now.

 

[Greg]

Incidentally, SnoCountry, the quasi-governing body for snow reporting, maintains official definitions for snow conditions, but they are still liberally used.

Here is a key to conditions used in our ski reports which is a data feed from SnowCountry:

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/surface_key.htm

I think the key is learning how discern the conditions based on a combination of official ski reports, personal trip reports, some basic knowledge of weather, an understanding of the area's "microclimate", and quite frankly some common sense. If it rained the previous day and then got cold, you'll most likely find hardpack, regardless of what the ski report says. All of this takes some experience at the particular mountain in question. Rarely have I experienced conditions that are extremely different than what I predicted. Often time the only differences are positive ones, like shallow powder stashes...

 

[trailbiscuit]

Greg,
Thanks for posting those definitions. Those are great to compare with what any given ski area will report.

My favorite is "variable conditions." If you read the definition, it describes pretty much any eastern ski area any day of the year. But, you usually only see variable conditions in the spring when it really means loose granular, frozen granular, slush, dirty ice and mud!

 

[riverc0il]

while it's all well and good for knowledgable skiers who ski often to know how to decipher the marketing of snow conditions, the people who really spend the big bucks at resorts (families that don't ski often but spend a lot on a few trips) and newbies may become discouraged by inconsistant or blatent mis-labeled conditions. by attempting to draw in more skiers to their particular resorts, ski area marketing folks may actually be hurting the industry.

for example, if i'm a newbie and/or an occasional skier and see "packed powder" reported the day i ski, then i ski frozen granular/scraped all day, i'm not gonna be happy with my ski experience. then, i see it's "packed powder" almost every day it's not actually "powder" on the trail conditions page, perhaps i will assume it's more of the same.

i really think an industry wide organization to advocate for more accurate conditions reporting and awarding certification to those resorts that comply could go a long way in increasing customer satisfaction and improving the industry as a whole. but unfortunately, the competitiveness of the ski industry forces ski resorts to cut the industries collective wrists in an attempt for them to stay afloat.

oops, seriously hyjacked that thread.

 

[teachski]

Before I go any further I should point out that rarely do you encounter ice at most ski resorts. Firm snow or boiler plate- yes, but ice- rarely. I point this out because as a ski area marketing guy we get accused of over using the term “packed powder”, which may be true- but I would argue that most skiers and boarders over use the term “ice”.

Well said! This is so true. Rarely does one encounter large areas of ice that simply cannot be avoided. Variable conditions found in the Northeast is what makes it so challenging (read: fun) to ski here.

On one trip, the ice I was referring to was true ICE, not New England hard pack. I actually love to ski on NE hard pack, people who have skied with me know that. This was translucent and in quite a few spots unavoidable. There were also numerous large death cookies at the edges of the transparent ice. I had relativly fresh edges, I had skied them only one day before the trip to Attitash. I was able to get some edge on the ice, but there were a lot of people that could not. This was a few years ago and I have only been back once since. The conditions were not much better. The person I was with and I quit after just a couple runs and went lost ski area hunting instead. There was an excuse for the second day, there was a rain and ice storm in the night. I have not been back since (primarily due to time and distance constraints).

 

[trailbiscuit]

You're right we've hijacked this thread, but...

by attempting to draw in more skiers to their particular resorts, ski area marketing folks may actually be hurting the industry.

I don't think there is any "may" about it. It does hurt the industry. Skiers are inherently skpetical when it comes to snow conditions reporting. It's the first lesson you learn as skier...right before the snowplow. Ski areas are always looking for ways to bring more people into the sport without addressing alienating their current customers...

 

[trailbiscuit]

So I called up there to see what the weather was. We were hoping it was just a tad cooler and either snowy or no rain if drove all the way to Bethel. They said "Actually, it's not doing anything up here right now, come on up, you'll have a great time".

You're not the only one. That was typical SR protocol a few years back. Here's the real problem: Sometimes it does snow at SR when it rains in Auburn, but you'd never believe that now.

But, don't give up on the Sunday River Inn. It's a great little touring center.

 

[sven@attitash]

snow reporting

I'm seeing a lot of comments about snow reporting and wanted to point a few issues that the resorts have when it comes to reporting. Most snow reports are completed and sent out at least an hour before the mountain opens, sometimes even a couple of hours. Many of the reporting services that distribute these reports require that they be submitted by as early as 5:00am. With that type of a time frame snow reporting (which I've done a fair amount of) becomes more about condition forecasting then actual reporting. When I get to the mountain at 5:00 am we look at the overnight grooming report and talk to the groomers to find out what got hit and what didn't, and if there were any issues. We look at the snowmaking report and then spend time looking at the days forecasted weather. That all gets factored together with our own knowledge of the mountain, a walk around the base area to actually feel the snow, and then it gets written up and sent. The tough part is that conditions usually rock first thing in the morning, but once the skiing public hits the hill- things can change. High traffic trails can get skied off. Trails get start to bump. Temps can start cold, get just warm enough, and get cold again. Those pesky weather reporters got the days weather wrong (that never happens). You get the idea. The best we can do is report what the conditions look like they will be at opening, beyond that it becomes more of a guessing game.

Personally, I've got a group of skiers who are here everyday for first chair, when they come in for morning coffee I ask them if we reported correctly or not. Better then 90% of the time they feel we are right on. Of the remaining 10% half of that has to do with weird weather and the other half we just blew it.

I bring this all up because most (not all) snow reporters that I've spoken with do try to convey good information. All of us in marketing know that if we promise a great product and don't deliver then we will lose a customer down the road. I for one, plan to work in the ski industry for awhile and don't have any intention of alienating those who will be in essence paying my paycheck for years to come. Believe it or not ski areas work hard to offer you a great skiing experience, remember most of us are skiers first and area employees second.

cheers,

sven

 

[Greg]

Another ski area rep joins the ranks! 8) Welcome, Sven. I hope you'll stick around.

 

[Ctownskier]

Is this board still active?

I know Sven Cole left Attitash. If items are posted here - will they continue to get replies?

 

[Greg]

Re: Is this board still active?

I know Sven Cole left Attitash. If items are posted here - will they continue to get replies?

Alex Kaufman, formerly of Killington, is the new PR guy at Attitash. I don't know whether he monitors these forums or not...