Belleayre Opens Gondola Today

[JimG.]

So on another topic, how much snow is up there off-trail? There was someone the highway on the way home from VT last weekend, but wondering if they get lucky with 6-8" from this storm....any chance for trees? Cathedral brook? Or not enough yet?

Even if they get 6-8" from Grayson they will still need another 10-12" to make the trees up in the Cats really skiable.

If you decide to sample I would recommend rock skis.

 

[JimG.]

I agree that the way Belleayre is set up now is ideal and that the Discovery Lift (gondola) is best used as a transit lift. I believe they are trying to upgrade and expand the discovery lodge and make it the true main lodge area. I also believe they are trying to relieve the typical weekend and holiday congestion in the Overlook lodge parking area. So they want to drive traffic to the Discovery area and have people park there.

Not sure about others but right now I don't even look at the Discovery Lodge when I get to Belle, I instinctively drive past it to Overlook. So there has to be some incentive for people to park there. The ROI will come from the expanded Discovery area including central rental and ski lesson areas. Plus the beginner terrain and magic carpet is right there at the base of the Gondi. Hunter realized a significant ROI when they built the Learning Center in the early 2000's. Admittedly, that project did not include a transit lift.

I guess what I fail to understand is why any skier would criticize a ski area (even one that is state owned) that wants to upgrade it's facilities. Especially at Belle which has not seen an upgrade in 25 years.

 

[Mapnut]

Right Jim, I've only parked at Discovery once, when the Overlook lot was full and I had to turn around. The lodge was a zoo - I only went inside to pee and it took me several minutes to get to the restroom, shuffling past the crowd lining up for rentals!

 

[cdskier]

Not sure about others but right now I don't even look at the Discovery Lodge when I get to Belle, I instinctively drive past it to Overlook. So there has to be some incentive for people to park there. The ROI will come from the expanded Discovery area including central rental and ski lesson areas. Plus the beginner terrain and magic carpet is right there at the base of the Gondi. Hunter realized a significant ROI when they built the Learning Center in the early 2000's. Admittedly, that project did not include a transit lift.

I guess what I fail to understand is why any skier would criticize a ski area (even one that is state owned) that wants to upgrade it's facilities. Especially at Belle which has not seen an upgrade in 25 years.

I don't have a problem with upgrading facilities (I've stated I fully support the overall expansion at Belleayre numerous times in this forum)...but the Gondola should not have been the first thing they did (and changing the lift from the HSQ mentioned in the master plan to a Gondola is the other issue). It comes off as a flashy "upgrade" done more for show.

You're absolutely right that a good chunk of the ROI should come from the expanded Discovery area. Problem is they skipped that for now to do the "flashy" upgrade first. You could have started to see some immediate ROI with doing the lodge expansion and centralization first (which is the way it was sequenced in the master plan). Some of the terrain expansion and at least one of the other new lifts was also recommended to be done first before the new Discovery lift. That makes a lot more sense.

Also saying there haven't been any upgrades at Belleayre in 25 years is a bit of a stretch. Super Chief was installed in 2006 and was a pretty major upgrade. They've done other incremental upgrades within the past several years as well (new snowmaking pumps, compressors, lodge upgrades, glades, etc).

On the topic of the Discovery area...I've never parked down there even once. I've always parked at either Overlook or Tomahawk (back when they had a ticket shack by that lift).

 

[Harvey]

I believe they are trying to upgrade and expand the discovery lodge and make it the true main lodge area. I also believe they are trying to relieve the typical weekend and holiday congestion in the Overlook lodge parking area. So they want to drive traffic to the Discovery area and have people park there.

This is definitely what they want to do.

Belle which has not seen an upgrade in 25 years.

This is much more true than not.

 

[JimG.]

Also saying there haven't been any upgrades at Belleayre in 25 years is a bit of a stretch. Super Chief was installed in 2006 and was a pretty major upgrade. They've done other incremental upgrades within the past several years as well (new snowmaking pumps, compressors, lodge upgrades, glades, etc).

Is it really true that the Super Chief was installed in 2006? It is hard to believe that lift is barely 12 years old. It looks much older and it sure seems to break down a lot.

 

[cdskier]

Is it really true that the Super Chief was installed in 2006? It is hard to believe that lift is barely 12 years old. It looks much older and it sure seems to break down a lot.

To be fair it broke down a lot even when it was brand new! But yes, it was installed in 2006 (the date makes sense to me personally as I didn't discover Belleayre until after I graduated college in 2003 and did ski the old non-detachable lift a couple years before it was replaced with the detachable).

Heck even Tomahawk was only installed in 1999 but I would have almost certainly guessed it was installed in the 80s if not earlier by the look and feel of it.

 

[tnt1234]

Stupid question - did they update the lower lodge yet?

 

[BenedictGomez]

Right, so the gondola doesn't provide any improvement for lower-level skiers -except for getting to Deer Run.

People are missing the point of this nonsense entirely, it's not about "upgrades" or "improvements" to the ski resort, it's about marketing ploys.

 

[cdskier]

Stupid question - did they update the lower lodge yet?

Minor updates, but not the major expansion proposed in the master plan (this is based on info I've seen shared by Belleayre as I've never personally set foot in the lower lodge and have only ever been in the Overlook and Sunset lodges)

 

[skimagic]

I always assumed they went with the Gondi instead of HSQ because they saw value in it as a four season attraction. Is a gondi better for mountain bike operations?

The other "benefits" listed in the press release are mountain biking, year round acces To sunset lodge for weddings, parties, and access to summit Nordic area being developed. So it has a bit more use than just a ski lift. I'm not going back to Belle to use it, the mtn has too short of vertical for the drive.

 

[da-bum]

Belleayre's Gondola cost about the same as Mt Snow's Bluebird express six-pack bubble. Bluebird is a bit longer, covers a bit more vertical, and has a slightly higher capacity...but it was the closest example I could think of for comparison.

That is not true. Belleayre's gondola cost $5 million from the $8 million requested. The others goes to lodge expansion:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...ommits-8m-to-belleayre-including-new-gondola/

For comparision, its neighboring resort Hunter took out a $5 million subsidized loan to upgrade its lift to a high speed six pack back in 2010.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2010/08/07/hunter-secures-4-8m-loan-to-upgrade-ski-lifts/

Hunter's 6-pack has a slightly higher vertical rise, but much shorter in length (5500' vs 13,000').

Taking 7 years of inflation into account, the gondola seem to have been much cheaper, albeit with much less cabins than there are chairs on the 6-pack.

 

[da-bum]

Belleayre's Gondola cost about the same as Mt Snow's Bluebird express six-pack bubble. Bluebird is a bit longer, covers a bit more vertical, and has a slightly higher capacity...but it was the closest example I could think of for comparison.

That is not true. Belleayre's gondola cost $5 million from the $8 million requested. The others goes to lodge expansion:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...ommits-8m-to-belleayre-including-new-gondola/

For comparision, its neighboring resort Hunter took out a $5 million subsidized loan to upgrade its lift to a high speed six pack back in 2010.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2010/08/07/hunter-secures-4-8m-loan-to-upgrade-ski-lifts/

Hunter's 6-pack has a slightly higher vertical rise, but shorter in length (5500' vs 6500').

Taking 7 years of inflation into account, the gondola seem to have been much cheaper, albeit with much less cabins than there are chairs on the 6-pack.

 

[cdskier]

That is not true. Belleayre's gondola cost $5 million from the $8 million requested. The others goes to lodge expansion:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...ommits-8m-to-belleayre-including-new-gondola/

I missed this post until now...

Perhaps that article is incorrect or just not including all details. The bid price listed in the contract for the gondola was $7,986,000.00. I find it hard to believe Dopp dropped $3M off the price later on. If that article is right that only $5M of the $8M is going to the gondola, then that is probably how much NYS is paying Dopp initially. There's a payment schedule in the contract where the cost is spread out over multiple years (2017-2019). That part of the contract that I saw is redacted though so I can't say for sure how much is being paid each year so I can't validate whether the $5M figure would make sense in that context or not.

 

[da-bum]

I missed this post until now...

Perhaps that article is incorrect or just not including all details. The bid price listed in the contract for the gondola was $7,986,000.00. I find it hard to believe Dopp dropped $3M off the price later on. If that article is right that only $5M of the $8M is going to the gondola, then that is probably how much NYS is paying Dopp initially. There's a payment schedule in the contract where the cost is spread out over multiple years (2017-2019). That part of the contract that I saw is redacted though so I can't say for sure how much is being paid each year so I can't validate whether the $5M figure would make sense in that context or not.

Who knows if they are allowed to pay in installments, given that they might not get the money in the next year's budget. We will see if there are any significant improvements to the lodges to know if there were any money from the $8m.

 

[Harvey]

There were significant improvements to the lodges.

 

[Dick Gazinya]

There were significant improvements to the lodges.

Maybe you can ride the gondola to nowhere with Snoloco and show him what's in your fanny pack.

 

[cdskier]

Who knows if they are allowed to pay in installments, given that they might not get the money in the next year's budget.

The payment spread out over 3 years was definitely in the contract...just the numbers of how much is due each year was redacted. I doubt if 0 was owed in 2019 that they would have bothered to put a line item for amount of money due in 2019 into the contract. Someone must have had confidence that they could find a way to put the money in the budget for next year.

 

[skiur]

That is not true. Belleayre's gondola cost $5 million from the $8 million requested. The others goes to lodge expansion:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...ommits-8m-to-belleayre-including-new-gondola/

For comparision, its neighboring resort Hunter took out a $5 million subsidized loan to upgrade its lift to a high speed six pack back in 2010.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2010/08/07/hunter-secures-4-8m-loan-to-upgrade-ski-lifts/

Hunter's 6-pack has a slightly higher vertical rise, but much shorter in length (5500' vs 13,000').

Taking 7 years of inflation into account, the gondola seem to have been much cheaper, albeit with much less cabins than there are chairs on the 6-pack.

Am I missing something? How does a lift at Hunter have a vertical rise of 5500 feet?

 

[Dick Gazinya]

Am I missing something? How does a lift at Hunter have a vertical rise of 5500 feet?

He did say length