Belleayre to be part of ORDA?

[deadheadskier]

when you consider the economic impact.

that's the key right there

The balance sheet of State run parks including ski areas, maybe often show red, but they do generate a lot of black in ways that aren't always easy to measure.

 

[ERJ-145CA]

I'll pay higher prices at Belleayre if I have to, as long as they still have the long season. Belleayre is my early and late season mountain. I count on it for late November and late March early April skiing. If they shorten their season my season will end up being shorter.

 

[Harvey]

This issue came up in the Cannon lease thread. If a so called poorly managed state run area is privatized, wouldn't that theoretically hurt other ski areas? A private business that is very bottom line driven (especially in light of trying to generate revenue for guaranteed payments to the state) would likely increase their own skier visits through better marketing and services, thereby hurting nearby competitors due to siphoning off their skier visits.

I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...

He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.

*http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html

 

[x10003q]

Obviously the local businesses surrounding those venues. Is that a problem?

ORDA Board Member Lussi owns the Crown Point Lake Placid. The new convention center is right next door attached to the 2 hockey arenas. The Crown Point advertises 30,000 sq ft of conference space. The new conv center has 90,000.

ORDA Board Member Weibrecht owns the Mirror Lake Inn which is about a 1/2 mile away. They do not have any conference space on site.

ORDA got all the money from NYS when Pataki was the gov. It was built when the conf business is very weak. LP is maybe 2 hours(in good weather) from the Burlington, Albany, and Montreal airports. It is not so easy to get to LP.

I doubt the convention center will ever give back what it cost.

 

[x10003q]

I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...

He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.

*http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html

Instead of bitching, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham should try to change the rules that keep Belleayre public. As mentioned public parks do not make profits. Maybe we should close all the parks. Then we could pay even more teachers.

Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)

 

[catskills]

Belleayre stuff:

1. Belleayre is part of NY State Constituion from the 1940s when the people of NY state voted to create it in the first place.
2. Belleayre is an important economic engine that is critical to local Ulster and Delaware county government, businesses and employment. Without Belleayre there would be businesses boarded up, foreclosures, higher unemployment, lost sales/hotel tax, and higher property taxes.
3. Belleayre is not going away given its part of the NY State Constitution.
4. An amendment to the NY State Constitution to privatize Belleayre, which the voters would need to approve in November, is not going to happen. Belleayre is an extremely small part of the entire NY State budget.
5. Overlook lodge is a classic but I don't know how many years it has left. A replacement will not be built at mid mountain anywhere near Overlook lodge.
6. A new lodge next to the lower Discovery lodge was months away from breaking ground before Governor Spitzer resigned and NY state economy imploded.
7. With a new lower lodge near Discovery lodge, a new fast high capacity lift was planned to be built to get customers up to the upper mountain in the morning and after lunch.
8. A lift from Pine Hill to the top of Cathedral Brook would be almost 2000 vertical feet of some serious skiing and riding.

 

[dmc]

I understand what you're saying. But at the same time, does Central Park in NYC make money? or any other park in the State of NY?

That's just it, parks inherently cost tax payers money, they are an amenity that greatly improves quality of life. Not everyone skis, but not everyone uses the beach at some random state park around the state either. Do you privatize all parks? That's the basis of the argument for the Cannon thread and the State of NH's budget shortfall.

Green spaces are a lot different from ski areas... I really don't think they are the same things.. Cities would suck without parks..

Belleayre COULD turn a profit if they change some things..

 

[dmc]

Instead of bitching, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham should try to change the rules that keep Belleayre public. As mentioned public parks do not make profits. Maybe we should close all the parks. Then we could pay even more teachers.

Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)

Green spaces/parks and Ski areas are different things..

You are ridiculous thinking a park is the same as a ski area... It's just a lame comparison...
A picnic with your kids in a green space isn't the same as a prepared mogul run. Everyone can enjoy a park but only middle class people from NJ enjoy Belleayre... You could live without it...

 

[dmc]

I'll pay higher prices at Belleayre if I have to, as long as they still have the long season. Belleayre is my early and late season mountain. I count on it for late November and late March early April skiing. If they shorten their season my season will end up being shorter.

Your choice..

 

[ts01]

...

Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)

And, what Belleayre is doing is teaching a ton of kids to ski. And adult learners like yours truly when I started bringing my kids back in their learning days. And then we get hooked..

Ten years later, I've probably skied 15-20 days at Plattekill; stayed several weekends in that part of the Catskills; bought season passes for my kids a couple of seasons at Belleayre and bounced between B and P as conditions allowed; continue to ski Belleayre early and late season as well as a lot of midseason day trips; bought two Plattekill hats that I wear all summer and put Plattekill stickers on both my cars so I can talk up the mountain to friends and total strangers; brought seven or eight friends to Plattekill on daytrips when they hadn't even heard of it; taken two long weekend trips with the family to Gore; another 15-20 days at Whiteface with family and friends over weekends and holiday weeks; spent a summer vacation week in the High Peaks near Lake Placid; sent at least four families to Belleayre to teach their kids to ski; filled my cars with gas, spent on food and lodging all over the Catskills and Adirondacks; and hidden countless credit card statements from my wife so she couldn't see how much I was spending on this sport -- IN NEW YORK STATE.

If I recall correctly NYS has more ski areas than any other state. I may be obsessive - like most AZers == but there are plenty others with varying degrees of commitment who got going at Belleayre and keep going all over.

So I'd say yes the taxpayers are getting value out of Belleayre and/or ORDA. Belleayre is close enough to NYC, NJ, and Albany too I guess to attract a lot of noobs, the price is right, and the layout is great for learners.

And if there's a combo pass for Belleayre/Gore/Whiteface in the future, I'll be spending a lot less in the Berkshires and VT.

 

[dmc]

I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...

He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.

*http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html

He's right..
I'm sick of paying for mini van loads from NJ to ski with my tax $$.
I'm not paying taxes for middle class folks to rip bumps and ski glades... It's just a friggin waste of my money that could be used for better things..

I know I suck for saying this... But it's the way I feel..

 

[dmc]

So I'd say yes the taxpayers are getting value out of Belleayre and/or ORDA. Belleayre is close enough to NYC, NJ, and Albany too I guess to attract a lot of noobs, the price is right, and the layout is great for learners.

BS - no value... People come up from NJ in the mini van all gassed up... Roll into Belleayre - ski for free - eat the packed lunch and go home.. No $$$ goes to the local economy.. And no tickets sold means no tax that goes into the economy.. I don't pay taxes to teach noobs from NJ to ski...

We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...

 

[RootDKJ]

BS - no value... People come up from NJ in the mini van all gassed up... Roll into Belleayre - ski for free - eat the packed lunch and go home.. No $$$ goes to the local economy.. And no tickets sold means no tax that goes into the economy.. I don't pay taxes to teach noobs from NJ to ski...

We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...

Not everyone. Anytime I'm in the Cats, I always stop by my favorite German place for a round or 4 and a good post-ski meal.

Then again, I ain't some noob in a minivvan. :lol:

A Belle/Gore/WF combo pass is enticing enough for me to consider not getting a Blue pass for 12/13. I'd have to give up some days due to the lack of night skiing & distance, and I'd miss the funny hijinks with the Blue Crew, but I'd seriously consider it. With a pass like that, I'd also forgo any trips to VT. The Whiteface crew seems like a good bunch of folks I'd like to rip with at some point.

 

[catskills]

We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...

If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes. Your example of EVERY NJ skier and rider that goes to Belleayre and doesn't spend a dime in NY state is not realistic.

 

[threecy]

If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes.

It must be wonderful to be Hunter or Scotch Valley (oops, RIP) and to have to compete against an area they are forced to subsidize.

 

[dmc]

If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes. Your example of EVERY NJ skier and rider that goes to Belleayre and doesn't spend a dime in NY state is not realistic.

OK - EVERY was bad... But you and I both know that people don't generally stop much to spend money locally.

It's mostly pack lunch or eat at the lodge.. Get a free pass - why not spend $ on lunch
And why would someone from NJ buy our expensive gas? That takes out a stop with a purchase for sure.

I bet more people stop at the thruway rest stop than the 28 corridor..

 

[catskills]

It must be wonderful to be Hunter or Scotch Valley (oops, RIP) and to have to compete against an area they are forced to subsidize.

If Belleayre generates enough tax dollars within Ulster county from income taxes, sales taxes, mortgage taxes, and hotel taxes to more than make up the difference between Belleayre expenses and income, then how is Hunter subsidizing Belleayre?

 

[catskills]

Freeman Newspaper: Group Calls for Due Diligence

PINE HILL – A report by the non-profit citizens’ group Catskill Heritage Alliance is calling for more due diligence, public scrutiny and transparency surrounding the possible transfer of the operation of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in Pine Hill from the state Department of Environmental Conservation to a quasi-public, quasi-private state authority.

..................

“Our concern is that Belleayre is supposedly losing money and, if the problem with Belleayre is making it break even and creating a little capital revenue stream for improvements, based on our analysis, on the Catskill Watershed Corp. report, we didn’t see that an authority structure would help that situation,” he said.

 

[dmc]

http://www.catskillheritage.org/news.html

Siegel shows that BMSC's losses can be eliminated by administrative changes that would not require transfer to an authority. The CWC's own analysis indicates that the ski center may need only an additional $4.40 to $6 per skier to break even. These are efficiencies BMSC could easily find without restructuring, using utility-type cost-of-service principles and without further cutting wages or employment.

 

[threecy]

If Belleayre generates enough tax dollars within Ulster county from income taxes, sales taxes, mortgage taxes, and hotel taxes to more than make up the difference between Belleayre expenses and income, then how is Hunter subsidizing Belleayre?

Belleayre pays income, sales, mortgage, and hotel taxes?!?