BFP Article on the "Paradox" of Ski Resort Development (JPR)

[riverc0il]

All I was saying was you won't be seeing big box stores in the NEK any time soon so I am not sure why you fear Jay bringing more development to the area. And also that Littleton had a business boom after a Walmart landed there. A business boom may or may not be progress.

The strip that the Littleton Walmart resides on is a pretty massive traffic ridden eye sore. That said, they have a lot of jobs over there. When we lived in StJ, we did a lot more shopping in Littleton than StJ. We certainly appreciated the Shaws and Walmart combo because StJ really didn't have anything like that. Is a shopping strip worth the jobs? Everyone had these own idea of progress and there certainly is too much of a good thing which drove me out of the city years ago.

 

[kingdom-tele]

All I was saying was you won't be seeing big box stores in the NEK any time soon so I am not sure why you fear Jay bringing more development to the area. And also that Littleton had a business boom after a Walmart landed there. A business boom may or may not be progress.

The strip that the Littleton Walmart resides on is a pretty massive traffic ridden eye sore. That said, they have a lot of jobs over there. When we lived in StJ, we did a lot more shopping in Littleton than StJ. We certainly appreciated the Shaws and Walmart combo because StJ really didn't have anything like that. Is a shopping strip worth the jobs? Everyone had these own idea of progress and there certainly is too much of a good thing which drove me out of the city years ago.

there you go Riv. you guys chose to shop in NH. what was TB saying about community an individual values?

its not the develoment per se I fear, it honestly has a pretty minimal effect on my life other than the lights getting brighter and brighter at the base, I can just look a little left though out the living room window so I'll be fine. Hell, I am one of the rink's biggest fans, they should have an outdoor one too.

its the style and scope of development. they want to make money, not just to survive and have a moderate carrying capacity, they want it to be a destination for wealthy S NE's, second home sales, real estate just waiting for someone who can afford it, it makes sense, they have the money to burn. but in the process they will price out the local family from its lift served ski experience, absorb the environment with infrastructure, and occupy people with carnival distractions, its already happening.

IMO, only an opinion, you come here(the NEK) knowing its pluses and minuses, and those are very different from person to person. for me its not a sacrifice to not have a Walmart, I know the people at PIck and Shovel on a first name basis now, or a grocery with all the spices I need, or a movie theater that has working seats, hell take you pick of missing ammenity. its different here, maybe the largest employer (or soon to be) could have embraced that a little better, all I'm getting at. hell I am probably way off, hope so.

I sound like a curmudgeon.

 

[farlep99]

A lot of people are beating up on kingdom-tele on this, but I'm sympathetic to his point (not all of them, but his main point which some are ignoring or missing).

First, when something or somewhere you love changes it's natural to lament those changes. The changes could end up being positive, but it's changing what you love nonetheless. There is something to be said about development (or over-development) ruining the character of a place. Travel around the country a lot & it's hard to tell the difference between a lot of places. Applebees & Home Depot's have their place I guess, but that place seems to be everywhere sometimes.

My point is, if I have one, is that what we're seeing in the Jay Peak development is a place turning from a ski area to a ski resort. Good & bad things come along with that, but if you're all about the skiing then it's natural to be a little bothered by what's going on up there. I know I'm bothered by it, even though I realize it could work out great for the NEK in the end. I wouldn't be so quick to say that Walmart "will never be in the NEK." If you told me 15-20 years ago there'd be a waterpark & fancy condos at Jay Peak I'd have thought that was crazy.

 

[crank]

I think the paradox is that you have an area of rugged natural beauty and in order for people to enjoy it there is a great deal of luxury development that goes on to make them comfortable, thus making the wilds of Vermont an attractive place to vacation or conference or whatever. I never ever would have thought Jay Peak would have this kind of development and while I will miss the bare bones, hard core skiing experience (yes the skiing experience is still there and has only gotten better over the years.) I do not begrudge the area success in luring more tourists. (unless that translates into longer lift lines and the mountain getting tracked out faster.

While there is a lot of development, I honestly feel that the more modern model of putting everything right there at the mountain's base is way better environmentally then the 1960's and 70's growth of places like Mt Snow, Stratton, KIllington, etc. which amounts to suburban sprawl in the mountains with road after road being cut and paved and a thousand separate septic systems being dug, lots being logged, etc. Better I think to keep it all in one spot.

As far as attracting foreign investors - why the heck not? Probably helps to bring in more foreign tourists as well.

 

[witch hobble]

I sound like a curmudgeon.

The world needs curmudgeons and NIMBYs. America's landscape (and it's literature)would be an obscene embarassment without them. So don't feel you need to conform to popular opinion just because you are outnumbered here.

 

[thetrailboss]

The world needs curmudgeons and NIMBYs. America's landscape (and it's literature)would be an obscene embarassment without them. So don't feel you need to conform to popular opinion just because you are outnumbered here.

Not necessarily true. With all the NIMBYism in Vermont, the biggest irony is that only large retailers such as Hannaford and Wal Mart exist, or are building, because they are the only ones who have the deep pockets to sustain the fight.

Here in SLC there are lots of national retailers, but there are a surprising number of healthy local retailers here too. Interesting how that is.

It's all about balance.

And kingdomtele, I agree that the "gentrification" is not a good thing at all. In Vermont we had that but also the NIMBY movement/anti-development thing going to extremes. Both really have made things worse IMHO.

 

[witch hobble]

Not necessarily true. With all the NIMBYism in Vermont, the biggest irony is that only large retailers such as Hannaford and Wal Mart exist, or are building, because they are the only ones who have the deep pockets to sustain the fight.

Here in SLC there are lots of national retailers, but there are a surprising number of healthy local retailers here too. Interesting how that is.

It's all about balance.

And kingdomtele, I agree that the "gentrification" is not a good thing at all. In Vermont we had that but also the NIMBY movement/anti-development thing going to extremes. Both really have made things worse IMHO.

Everything I say is not necessarily true, and not necessarily false. There is a paradox.

I really have no dog in this particular fight, but could you provide an example of a situation where a small scale, local retailer or employer in general has faced organized NIMBY resistance.

And I'm sure you as much as anyone can tell that the demographic and the lifestyle is way different SLC vis a vis NEK. But do you think some of the localism is the Mormon population supporting their own?

 

[thetrailboss]

E

I really have no dog in this particular fight, but could you provide an example of a situation where a small scale, local retailer or employer in general has faced organized NIMBY resistance.

There are many business ventures that simply looked elsewhere to grow. Burton laid off almost its entire Vermont manufacturer employees and moved them to Austria. Vermont businesses Tubbs and Mad River Canoe left after being bought. A local investor in Middlebury was originally told that the Town would love to have a small electric turbine on the Otter Creek Falls downtown in an abandoned mill. After he spent $500k on the project, the Town reversed course and left him hanging because folks were upset about the "historical" run down mill being used. The Ms. Lyndonville Diner did a tasteful renovation of their diner, including some work to mitigate erosion. The new town development administrator fined them for not having a permit (which they were told they didn't need). They fought it through the courts and lost. They had to spend money to make it look like it was...old and not functional. Why? And then of course there are the many folks who would yell at me until they were red in the face about the need for renewable energy and green power, only to protest wind development in Vermont. Huh? :blink: There are many, many examples of how the anti-development movement has really hurt the economy in Vermont and made things worse for folks.

And I'm sure you as much as anyone can tell that the demographic and the lifestyle is way different SLC vis a vis NEK. But do you think some of the localism is the Mormon population supporting their own?

No it is not related to that. Most of the development in Sugar House and other areas are not in fact even related to LDS ventures.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Not necessarily true. With all the NIMBYism in Vermont, the biggest irony is that only large retailers such as Hannaford and Wal Mart exist, or are building, because they are the only ones who have the deep pockets to sustain the fight.

Here in SLC there are lots of national retailers, but there are a surprising number of healthy local retailers here too. Interesting how that is.

It's all about balance.

And kingdomtele, I agree that the "gentrification" is not a good thing at all. In Vermont we had that but also the NIMBY movement/anti-development thing going to extremes. Both really have made things worse IMHO.

population differences? pretty limited resources in the NEK for both small business and cut throat box stores to exist. no ones kidding themselves, the majority of people here will save the $40 a week vs help the small independent store owner

I don't have the answer. even if I did, JPR could give a shit. its just a curious prpocess unfolding. the NEK is harbor to some amazing craftsmen, timber frame builders, custom interior designs, etc. and yet the scale of development at J requires another larger VT construction corp. while local tradesmen can't supply for this scale I could imagine a resort development that could embrace the local work force , making it something truly genuine. I am dreaming of course.

 

[Nick]

What a novel concept. A ski resort spends a bunch of $$ and develops NEW things that have great marketing appeal to a wide cross section of skiers/riders and even some of their non skiing/riding friends and then some of what they have developed can be used either year round or just in the non snow times, and more and more people come to the area and spend money in the area which has a direct positive impact on the local economy! Wow, who would have ever thought that could happen!

Responsible development can and should happen, but frankly most state and federal reps, and even those in VT, should be bending over backwards in this day and age to make responsible growth easier to happen and hence see tangible economic impacts to those places that show that they can raise the capital to do so.

Should every ski area have an indoor waterpark and snazzy new hotel and golf course?? Nope, But if some would like to, and can do so in a responsible way and can find the capital to do so, well then the legal and impact study fees and time it takes for the process to move from concept to in progress shouldn't be something that is often measured in the millions of dollars and years. Responsible, shovel ready jobs with private funding should be something that just about every cross section of the population should be looking at with open arms

Well said .

I didn't realize how huge that Jay Peak waterpark was. But I agree ... lots of families don't want to spend a full nine hours on the slopes either, and you need something else to do afterwards besides just hang out in a room.

I don't think the environmental impact is really that tangible ... the pump house is in a base location, not on the slopes, like mentioned in the articles. Yeah it uses electricity ... but they can follow LEED principles to minimize impact and it's great for the local economy. All for responsible expansion of ski areas.

 

[thetrailboss]

population differences?

Way to take my comments out of context! ;lol: Witch Hobble wanted to know more about how Vermont, who have some that don't want big box stores, actually only has them. In SLC, which is admittedly more conservative, you'd think that the big box stores would be the only thing in existence, but that is not the case.

pretty limited resources in the NEK for both small business and cut throat box stores to exist. no ones kidding themselves, the majority of people here will save the $40 a week vs help the small independent store owner

Hate to tell you but that is already happening. In Lyndonville alone a good many go to Kinney's, Rite Aid, and Dollar General. In some circumstances these again are the only retailers in this category unless you want to drive to Littleton. And by the way St. Jay was going to have a new WalMart put in the area where there is a Brownfield site. The opposition pushed them out to save local retailers. Well, they are in Littleton now and while the Meadows is a mess, the downtown is thriving with local merchants compared to St. Jay. That Brownfield still is there in St. Jay and it looks like hell.

I don't have the answer. even if I did, JPR could give a shit. its just a curious prpocess unfolding. the NEK is harbor to some amazing craftsmen, timber frame builders, custom interior designs, etc. and yet the scale of development at J requires another larger VT construction corp. while local tradesmen can't supply for this scale I could imagine a resort development that could embrace the local work force , making it something truly genuine. I am dreaming of course.

OK, I am calling BS on this. A VERMONT construction company is a VERMONT construction company, and they employ Vermonters. There are many tradesmen who are grateful to have their jobs. As to your idyllic craftsman working in his barn, yes they do exist and yes they have helped with larger projects, including at my alma mater college in Addison County. There are lots of outlets for those smaller craftsmen including local retailers and other jobs. And do you know for sure that JPR did not use local products in their buildings?

 

[thetrailboss]

...and the other point I was going to make in response to KT was that folks are free to do what they want with their families. Some folks love the waterpark, others don't. You clearly don't like it, so don't go. It's as simple as that. From what I have heard it has been wildly successful, so someone likes it. And what gives anyone the right to look down their noses at someone who takes their family to an amusement park or does something you might not do? It's the same thing with folks who shop at WalMart. I might not like it, but do I have a right to tell others in my community where to shop? No. Don't shop there.

 

[kingdom-tele]

...and the other point I was going to make in response to KT was that folks are free to do what they want with their families. Some folks love the waterpark, others don't. You clearly don't like it, so don't go. It's as simple as that. From what I have heard it has been wildly successful, so someone likes it. And what gives anyone the right to look down their noses at someone who takes their family to an amusement park or does something you might not do? It's the same thing with folks who shop at WalMart. I might not like it, but do I have a right to tell others in my community where to shop? No. Don't shop there.

so which is it TB - is it as simple as don't go or is it as complex as the gentrification of a region. Am I the only one here who isn't allowed an opinion, pretty flimsy mirror you got to call me out for judging others. Reality is I have no influence on what happens there, doesn't mean I can't question its mission or speculate on the potential aspect of its growth that are extreme opposites of my personal reasons for living here. Costs my family $123 a day to take them skiing there now, chump change for you guys I know, getting a little ridiculous for my wallet though. god forbid I feel anything other than warm tinglies for shit I couldn't possibly care less about. this is getting stupid. but since I'm not retired or rich I guess I know where I stand on your scale of VT residents

and they did use local products, even recycled pieces of J history, even used local workers, maybe they could have done something different that put more money in the pockets of the woe is me NEK'r, but since there are so many outlets for their expertise I'm sure the point is moot.

time will tell

 

[Zand]

Littleton is all the proof you need that the little guy can exist among the big stores. St J is a giant wasteland of nothing and a bunch of people walking around aimlessly wondering where they're supposed to go. There are a LOT of empty storefronts on Railroad street. Not to mention the St J mall (aka the small) is in the worst place to get people to go... it should be down near exit 20 right by the highway. The town is too sprawled out with its businesses yet there's almost nothing downtown. Newport/Derby kinda have this right, and you see Main St looking pretty decent and the bigger stores up on the Newport/Derby road by the highway. Instead, the voters in St J refuse to change anything and the town loses all its business to Littleton.

St J is the prefect example of NIMBYs ruining their own town. The place could thrive if it was run correctly, but its getting run into the ground. This state will always be a beautiful place if modernization is done in moderation, but it needs to be done. People aren't going to drive all the way to the Canadian border from NYC and that area to ski a pretty good mountain and then have absolutely nothing to do. Without more stuff to do, the people won't come and VT's biggest industry, tourism, will die off except down near Mt. Snow and Killington. Most of the major ski areas in the state are near a decent population center, but Jay is in the middle of nowhere. If you develop the base area a little bit, people will come. The farms in Troy, Newport center, Coventry, etc, will still be farms, and the forest on Jay will still be a forest.

It's unfortunate that the farms and mills have died off in this state but what happened happened and there's nothing anyone can do to change it. The state lives off tourism now and if the stubborn people want to stop any development from happening at a ski resort BASE AREA, then people are going to go to NH, Maine, northern NY, etc. There's nothing wrong with putting a waterpark and new hotel at the base of Jay. It's more jobs for a place that has next to nothing for jobs, more stuff to do for people who are on the fence what ski resort to go to, and in turn more money in the local economy. It's not going to turn into North Conway, nor are they trying to do that.

 

[thetrailboss]

so which is it TB - is it as simple as don't go or is it as complex as the gentrification of a region. Am I the only one here who isn't allowed an opinion, pretty flimsy mirror you got to call me out for judging others. Reality is I have no influence on what happens there, doesn't mean I can't question its mission or speculate on the potential aspect of its growth that are extreme opposites of my personal reasons for living here. Costs my family $123 a day to take them skiing there now, chump change for you guys I know, getting a little ridiculous for my wallet though. god forbid I feel anything other than warm tinglies for shit I couldn't possibly care less about. this is getting stupid. but since I'm not retired or rich I guess I know where I stand on your scale of VT residents

and they did use local products, even recycled pieces of J history, even used local workers, maybe they could have done something different that put more money in the pockets of the woe is me NEK'r, but since there are so many outlets for their expertise I'm sure the point is moot.

time will tell

First, I was responding to a comment that I now see is deleted and my point was that some folks like some things, and there is no right or wrong there. The waterpark is not the gentrification issue.

As to the cost of skiing, yes, it is expensive. I hate it too, and $123 is not chump change for me either.

And no, I don't think that you are retarded. I think we are having a discussion about a big issue for Vermont and one that I am admittedly passionate about and that I guess we have a difference of opinion about, which is fine. That's all.

As to the last point, I am confused because you had said that no "local tradesmen" were used in the project, and now you say that they were. So not sure about that.

 

[riverc0il]

there you go Riv. you guys chose to shop in NH. what was TB saying about community an individual values?

Interesting story... we moved to Vermont wanting what it offered. At the time, I was an extreme anti-corporate pro-local business type. We set up shop in StJ just up the hill from the "White" Market which we eventually renamed the "Green" Market because we kept getting stale bread and nasty produce there. We switched to shopping at Shaw's in Littleton because the local community store was just plain nasty. We honestly tried shopping locally as much as possible... but there are just some things I couldn't get in town. I bought stuff from Peter Glenn but they closed up shop.

It isn't just a matter of community vs individual values. I don't believe you should support businesses based on community values. You should support businesses because they provide a good service. When they don't, you shouldn't support them. To be quite frank, my experience in StJ had me reconsidering my anti-corporate pro-local business values because the local businesses just were not delivering. When I moved to StJ, I'd rather spit on myself than step foot in a Walmart. I left StJ feeling like I didn't have many other options besides bending over backwards to support businesses that would do the community more good by closing so that a better entrepreneur could open another business without feeling they can't due to existing competition.

Newport maybe a different world. But StJ really needs some work.

 

[riverc0il]

A lot of people are beating up on kingdom-tele on this, but I'm sympathetic to his point (not all of them, but his main point which some are ignoring or missing).

First, when something or somewhere you love changes it's natural to lament those changes.

is kingdom-tele a Jay Peak lover? I don't recall so, occasional skier as I recall? Jay and Burke are the only things that have changed in the NEK (okay, some wind farms too) recently. I don't recall kingdom-tele mentioning any particular item very close to his heart that specifically has changed. Not much changes in the NEK, so perhaps a waterpark being built 20 miles west at what is already a resort is enough to rock the entire NEK. That goes back to my point that you ain't going to see Wally Worlds built in the NEK any time soon. I still don't see the connection behind a waterpark at what has already been a resort for a long time and over development and de-Vermonting the NEK.

 

[witch hobble]

There are many business ventures that simply looked elsewhere to grow. Burton laid off almost its entire Vermont manufacturer employees and moved them to Austria. Vermont businesses Tubbs and Mad River Canoe left after being bought. A local investor in Middlebury was originally told that the Town would love to have a small electric turbine on the Otter Creek Falls downtown in an abandoned mill. After he spent $500k on the project, the Town reversed course and left him hanging because folks were upset about the "historical" run down mill being used. The Ms. Lyndonville Diner did a tasteful renovation of their diner, including some work to mitigate erosion. The new town development administrator fined them for not having a permit (which they were told they didn't need).

Once again, not looking to fight......but those first three examples are some of the unfortunate results of globalization (but hey, cheaper snowboards, canoes and snowshoes, I guess) and really not unlike other parts of the country have been dealing with for decades. The other two sound to me like typical small town political BS, more so than a large groundswell of NIMBYism. Really the result of Town Meeting as legislative session.

The process of gentrification often temporarily employs the very people about to be priced out of the neighborhood.

 

[thetrailboss]

Once again, not looking to fight......but those first three examples are some of the unfortunate results of globalization (but hey, cheaper snowboards, canoes and snowshoes, I guess) and really not unlike other parts of the country have been dealing with for decades. The other two sound to me like typical small town political BS, more so than a large groundswell of NIMBYism. Really the result of Town Meeting as legislative session.

These are some examples that come to mind, but the first three really relied on Vermont as part of their brand, and then found it was just too expensive to stay. The other two had nothing to do with town meetings or anything like that. It is not so much a NIMBY issue as much as a BANANA issue (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything). Other examples include local investors who want to develop small scale wind in Rutland County only to be met with resistance from a few NIMBY folks who pretty much cause WWIII over the thing. There are other stories too....and many who don't even consider VT because of this bad reputation...such as Target.

 

[Magog Fishy]

Not too much to say, or add.

First, gotta say the Pick & Shovel rules! An institution.:flag:

Agree & disagree with some of what K-tele says. JPR is not perfect, but they seem to do more for the community than at least 75% of other major ski areas and major businesses -- for example, name another ski area that does what they do for VT military families with someone on tour. The scale, scope, and pace of JPR's expansion has certainly taxed a lot of JPR skiers. The new Hotel Jay bulk/scale is massive on the NEK facing side, and thus seems out of character/non-welcoming to the region. The inside of the NHJ (not talking waterpark) seems somewhat banal, for example tables and chairs in Dick's seem like they were ordered from the PR of China catalog whereas the tables in Alice's are handcrafted in the region.

At the end of the day, one does have to ask what is JPR's mission? Is it to create Tremblant South (Jay's walkup ticket prices have certainly gone up, less deals, and $35 for the waterpark), create jobs in the NEK, be very profitable, and have 1,500 wealthy foreigners that will have spent $500,000 a piece to own a part of JPR and/or associated projects? Is the mission to grow at a reasonable pace, create an authentic Vermont skiing experience with limited uphill capacity and old/slow lifts, and be much less profitable? Certainly seems like (for better or for worse) the former, especially when they are touting commercial/charter flights and saying you soon might be able to be at JPR in 1.5 hours from Boston via a HELICOPTER SHUTTLE via an expanded Newport State Airport. Cool you can be out snowshoeing or touring, and you will be able to see a helicopter wiz by and perhaps create a mini-blizzard for you.uke: Talk about irony, anyone remember JPR's ad from a few years ago with the jet setters!

At the end of the day, I am not sure what to think plus I have never had a conversation with Bill in order to find out what makes him tick and what his overall plans are (or as many of my liftmates would say, the "evil plans"). If AnC and the Newport Hotel gets built, that will certainly have a major impact on Newport plus there is talk of a large new airplane parts plant at Newport Airport.

Ask me in 15 years what I think! All I know is that the thought of Helicopter Shuttles, quickly tracked-out powder, and god-forbid a new State Side Lodge with no character (although I am optimistic this will not be the case) makes me very unhappy. :evil: However, expanded SC terrain/access and the thought of JPR with lift-served skiing in May (that is what they are saying; just came out with a video) makes me very happy!:-D