BFP Article on the "Paradox" of Ski Resort Development (JPR)

[Black Phantom]

lots of aspiring youth looking to top out in the laundry and houskeeping room. with pre req's of standing for long periods and lifting 40lbs its kind like working on the family farm, just without the cash under the table or the muck boots. but I don't know the dress code so maybe the boots are still appropriate

It's one way to get a foot in the door and learn about business. Hospitality is about all that is left in VT.

IBM was such a bad neighbor.

 

[thetrailboss]

It's one way to get a foot in the door and learn about business. Hospitality is about all that is left in VT.

IBM was such a bad neighbor.

Again, bingo! You need employers at all levels (entry, mid, higher) to make it work. Vermont is really left now with a lot of entry level jobs, few mid jobs, and very few high level jobs. The industries in the upper portions have left.

 

[drjeff]

Again, bingo! You need employers at all levels (entry, mid, higher) to make it work. Vermont is really left now with a lot of entry level jobs, few mid jobs, and very few high level jobs. The industries in the upper portions were driven out by many of the policies coming out of Montpelier.

Fixed it for 'ya TB

Inspite of what some seem to think these days. Most businesses actually have a finite supply of money (okay some don't have any as of late too). The more one looks to take from a business, the more that business will look to go elsewhere and then via modern transportation sell the same product that it used to make in that now closed location, back to that same area from its newer, cheaper location. The reality is that from a business perspective, the world is much smaller than it used to be so unless one is prepared to compete with a larger audience and/or take the steps to compete with a larger audience don't expect too much of a result these days across most types of businesses

 

[thetrailboss]

You are right, Dr. Jeff. I am trying not to get political, but the current situation is the unintended consequence of policy choices that have been made.

 

[kingdom-tele]

You are right, Dr. Jeff. I am trying not to get political, but the current situation is the unintended consequence of policy choices that have been made.

While I can only imagine how complicated it is for a larger business with considerations for a hundreds, thousands? of employees it still comes down to staring at the bottom line. how much money do you need to stuff in your pockets, how large of an infrastructure needs to be built before you start detracting from a region devoid of glitzy infrastructure

its easy for me to say working in a small office, but taking what seems like a hit to the business is still often worth that frustration because you are still an integral part of a community, not shunning a community that won't get you rich.

Besides, the mountain isn't going anywhere, I'm sure if J could move it to NH it would be better for the bottom line, maybe a lodge in colebrook with train access would be better

 

[thetrailboss]

While I can only imagine how complicated it is for a larger business with considerations for a hundreds, thousands? of employees it still comes down to staring at the bottom line. how much money do you need to stuff in your pockets, how large of an infrastructure needs to be built before you start detracting from a region devoid of glitzy infrastructure

Huh? :blink: I know that there are many more jobs at Jay today than there were two or three years ago. You honestly don't see that as a good thing?

its easy for me to say working in a small office, but taking what seems like a hit to the business is still often worth that frustration because you are still an integral part of a community, not shunning a community that won't get you rich.

But you aren't seeing the point, or you don't want to see it. The "community" is suffering because the folks who make that community what it is can no longer afford to live there, or lose their jobs, or have to move for those jobs. So the community suffers. One only needs to look at St. Jay, Newport, Barre, and Rutland to see what happens when you lose your middle class...the towns corrode.

Healthy (private) business and healthy communities are not mutually exclusive propositions. In fact, they need each other. When I grew up in Lyndonville private businesses and individuals did a hell of a lot for the community and donated a lot of time and money to make things better for folks. Not because they had to; because they wanted to and it was the right thing to do. It is a shame that you lived in a place where this was not the norm, and have brought this cynicism to the NEK. Your own (presumably private) employer is probably getting some indirect benefits from the economic development at Jay and, as a result, in Newport. You need a job to pay your bills and survive even a simple lifestyle.

The whole "Vermont has a great quality of life, so we have to pay more [taxes] for it" is complete nonsense. What makes Vermont special are the things not related to the government. It is the individuals who make the communities and their own values. It is not something that is implemented by law or anything. It comes from within.

Besides, the mountain isn't going anywhere, I'm sure if J could move it to NH it would be better for the bottom line, maybe a lodge in colebrook with train access would be better

You must have forgotten about Killington's effort to move to NH! :lol:

I'm sure that W. Smith, B. Stenger, and other resort operators would privately concede that they wish that they could move their mountains.

 

[AdironRider]

What is your ultimate point Kingdom?

You seem to want it both ways. You lament how NEK residents have it tough, then when light is shining at the end of the tunnel, its going to destroy what makes the NEK great.

You seem to think that its all about the bottom line. While in the most basic sense it is, uncertainty plays a role as well. If you owned a business and didnt know what the state and local governments will throw at you next, its a scary thing to try and guess the future.

Either way, you seem to be scared of new things. Change is not always a bad thing. Considering there has been basically zero development outside of the resort proper, to say this is going to ruin the NEK is a bit of a stretch at this point.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Business at Jay Peak is up 33 percent despite skimpy snowfall this winter, and the water park is a major factor, said resort spokesman J.J. Tolland

Business is up 33 does not mean a big increase in skier visits. In the business world there are two types of growth....organic and non-organic. Not too surprising that with Jay's non-organic growth with the addition of a new hotel, new indoor ice rink and the indoor water park that business is up.

Are people coming to Jay for the water park and ice rink and not skiing during the winter? If they are booking lodging reservations, shopping and eating out that's a good thing. People coming to Jay in the summer for the new facilities, especially the water park is another. Jay is doing what alot of other resorts are also doing or planning on doing. Offering other activities other than just skiing and riding and it seems that Jay has done this is a pretty big way

A coupleof hours frm millions in the Monteal area, exchange rate basically on par, it may not be another North Conway but they probably are glad of that. I think it's a smart move, I hope it works. In good snow year it could be very successful. Conversly, is it posible that in a good snow year the guests will be back to sking and rding, too tired to utilize the water park and ice rink?

 

[from_the_NEK]

Are people coming to Jay for the water park and ice rink and not skiing during the winter?

I can confirm there are groups of non-skiers visiting the waterpark and the Ice Arena.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Huh? :blink: I know that there are many more jobs at Jay today than there were two or three years ago. You honestly don't see that as a good thing?


But you aren't seeing the point, or you don't want to see it. The "community" is suffering because the folks who make that community what it is can no longer afford to live there, or lose their jobs, or have to move for those jobs. So the community suffers. One only needs to look at St. Jay, Newport, Barre, and Rutland to see what happens when you lose your middle class...the towns corrode.

Healthy (private) business and healthy communities are not mutually exclusive propositions. In fact, they need each other. When I grew up in Lyndonville private businesses and individuals did a hell of a lot for the community and donated a lot of time and money to make things better for folks. Not because they had to; because they wanted to and it was the right thing to do. It is a shame that you lived in a place where this was not the norm, and have brought this cynicism to the NEK. Your own (presumably private) employer is probably getting some indirect benefits from the economic development at Jay and, as a result, in Newport. You need a job to pay your bills and survive even a simple lifestyle.

The whole "Vermont has a great quality of life, so we have to pay more [taxes] for it" is complete nonsense. What makes Vermont special are the things not related to the government. It is the individuals who make the communities and their own values. It is not something that is implemented by law or anything. It comes from within.

You must have forgotten about Killington's effort to move to NH! :lol:

I'm sure that W. Smith, B. Stenger, and other resort operators would privately concede that they wish that they could move their mountains.

never said the jobs were a bad thing. but replacing one menial paycheck for another is not exactly rebuilding the middle class here IMO. Since you are concerned about by upbringing, I grew up in coastal Maine and got to watch a town of blue collar workers get slowly pushed aside by rising property taxes while the heart of the community got replaced by folks wanting to "enhance" their access to whatever they left in southern new england, so maybe I am a little stand offish at the glory JPR is touting. time will tell.

AR - how do I want it both ways? J could have easily had a smaller scale development plan that integrated the community, people came to ski here prior to the waterpark. while its a stretch for some, there really are things to do here when the skiing isn't so hot, lots of amazing places to see/experience. who's lamenting over a "tough" life. not me, people either work hard here, or not at all, the lamenting seems to come from everyone concerned that people couldn't live without constant development/progress. yeah, I guess I am a little shocked, scared, whatever. it used to be a place you had to try to get to, for all its warts and missing teeth it was still a character.

maybe places/regions shouldn't try to be like every other place. thats my point.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

can always count on you for enlightenment. since you've spent so much time here, would love to hear your insight to the "woe is me mentality" running rampant here in the NEK, I'm not a business man so maybe learning more about how this trickle down effect is going to save the day and lead us out of the economic doldrums you speak of would be helpful

out of curiousity, do you believe every region should be blessed with super hero development?

Jesus, even Brattleboro couldn't/didn't want to hang to Home Depot! Friggin Brattleboro has 10,000 year around residents and is the hub of southern VT for christ sake. Also don't the towns even with zoning have a right to shoot down things like box stores?

 

[riverc0il]

I am not blaming JPR for doing what they have to do in their business design. its just ironic a region promoted for its environmental beauty (non development) is seeing 10's of thousands of square feet of inside space as its most treasured asset. there was more than one way to skin this cat, their claim to enriching the NEK seems a little far flung, IMO of course

C'mon, this is nothing new. Vermont has been schizophrenic for over a century. There has always been the fight between the rural farmer and downtown business man. And for over a hundred years, Vermont has been balancing the need to bring tourist dollars to the state with the need to protect its natural beauty and not throw the baby out with the bath water. This isn't anything new. But isn't it a good thing that the development is limited to a dozen or so major areas and the rest of Vermont stays pretty natural? Let's face it, what is happening in Jay is not defacing anything except for the Jay Peak Tram Basin locale.

Jay Peak recently posted a video to its Facebook showing all the new people working at the Waterpark. It really struck a chord with me. And these are year round jobs lifeguarding and servicing guests. That doesn't even count all the food establishments and the hotel and the hockey rink, and many of the ski area folks will switch over to golf in the summer. There really are a lot of jobs being driven by Jay Peak. Check it out sometime. I am sure all the new development has added at least one hundred new jobs by now. They might not be the highest paying by I doubt people are moving to Jay to be house keepers and life guards (ski bums surely aren't taking those jobs that require them to work during lift hours). Maybe a few top end white collars get imported, but they'll spend money in the area. And 95% of the jobs are not going to be white collar imports. People wouldn't take those jobs if they didn't need them.

And there is a lot of growth opportunity for folks to get in on the bottom floor and work their way up to management. Imagine.... kids getting part time jobs in high school and having a high quality good paying management job to aspire to and work up to instead of having to flee to Burlington, Montpelier, West Leb, Manch, or beyond...

You don't need to worry about development invading the NEK. We already saw what happens when Walmart wants to move into the NEK. They get pushed over to Littleton which is now hopping with new business.

 

[abc]

God, what a piece of crap that article is:

Bankrolled by some $250 million in foreign investment

Where the hell is that "foreign" country? China? Right, it also starts with a C!

If this is the mentality of the Vermont local, and that writter is the quality of its "intellectuals", I now understand the "paradox" Vermont is in, not the paradox of Jay Peak!

 

[riverc0il]

EB5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa

There is absolutely no paradox.

 

[kingdom-tele]

C'mon, this is nothing new. Vermont has been schizophrenic for over a century. There has always been the fight between the rural farmer and downtown business man. And for over a hundred years, Vermont has been balancing the need to bring tourist dollars to the state with the need to protect its natural beauty and not throw the baby out with the bath water. This isn't anything new. But isn't it a good thing that the development is limited to a dozen or so major areas and the rest of Vermont stays pretty natural? Let's face it, what is happening in Jay is not defacing anything except for the Jay Peak Tram Basin locale.

Jay Peak recently posted a video to its Facebook showing all the new people working at the Waterpark. It really struck a chord with me. And these are year round jobs lifeguarding and servicing guests. That doesn't even count all the food establishments and the hotel and the hockey rink, and many of the ski area folks will switch over to golf in the summer. There really are a lot of jobs being driven by Jay Peak. Check it out sometime. I am sure all the new development has added at least one hundred new jobs by now. They might not be the highest paying by I doubt people are moving to Jay to be house keepers and life guards (ski bums surely aren't taking those jobs that require them to work during lift hours). Maybe a few top end white collars get imported, but they'll spend money in the area. And 95% of the jobs are not going to be white collar imports. People wouldn't take those jobs if they didn't need them.

And there is a lot of growth opportunity for folks to get in on the bottom floor and work their way up to management. Imagine.... kids getting part time jobs in high school and having a high quality good paying management job to aspire to and work up to instead of having to flee to Burlington, Montpelier, West Leb, Manch, or beyond...

You don't need to worry about development invading the NEK. We already saw what happens when Walmart wants to move into the NEK. They get pushed over to Littleton which is now hopping with new business.

defining progress by your access to wal-martand applebee's. pretty much sums it up for me.

can't wait.

 

[riverc0il]

defining progress by your access to wal-martand applebee's. pretty much sums it up for me.

can't wait.

That wasn't what I wrote at all. Not literally. Not figuratively. Not any other way you could take it.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

God, what a piece of crap that article is:


Where the hell is that "foreign" country? China? Right, it also starts with a C!

If this is the mentality of the Vermont local, and that writter is the quality of its "intellectuals", I now understand the "paradox" Vermont is in, not the paradox of Jay Peak!

I thought the flatlanders loved the "C" word, heck I thought Vermonts entire title was "The Peoples Republic of Communist Vermont".

 

[abc]

defining progress by your access to wal-martand applebee's. pretty much sums it up for me.

can't wait.

Can't wait, till you define progress.

 

[snowmonster]

Where the hell is that "foreign" country? China? Right, it also starts with a C!

IIRC, the other country where the EB5 program for Jay was heavily marketed was Vietnam. So, yes, the commies are indeed coming!

 

[kingdom-tele]

That wasn't what I wrote at all. Not literally. Not figuratively. Not any other way you could take it.

then I read this, "W already saw what happens when Walmart wants to move into the NEK. They get pushed over to Littleton which is now hopping with new business", the wrong way. apologies.

my definition/opinion of progress, as it relates to this, not sacrificing a "resort" that was based on its natural experience, that remained affordable for a local family to also experience. Creating growth that incorporated a region vs alienating it, knowing it might not be the best for the bottom line, but maintained the exposure to it natural and local resources.


I am clearly on the wrong side of the fence on this one, and in the grander scheme its a pretty small piece of the NEK. Still a wonderful Mt. range to tour around and be a part of.

enjoy it. whatever it you prefer