Big Burke announcement

[Smellytele]

IMO the potential of East Burke lies in the KT a lot more than in the mountain. There are lots of better/equivalent mountains to ski in Quebec and New England. There are lots of better/equivalent lift-served mountain biking facilities elsewhere. KT is what makes this place unique.

To me it is crystal clear that for everyone to really thrive optimally, QBurke needs to work with KT and the community. It is beyond me that they can't see that. Dumb dumb dumb.

Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?

 

[BenedictGomez]

We don't know if the hotel is going to break even. I sincerely hope it does, but the fact that it was built with "free" money does not mean that it will be a success.

Depends what you mean.

If you mean based on:

A) A true financial analysis which includes the "free money" = No. Never. Not a chance.
B) An analysis based on "free hotel" = maybe. Too many variables/unknowns to know. The early years should look good, it's after you're into it for several years it might become thinly staffed and you'll notice accoutrements & quality go down. I'm pretty skeptical myself, though I'm not a malcontent.

 

[the original trailboss]

Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?

Yes, that has always been the case in both directions (a few unhappy businesses did get stiffed in some early times, but the next owner always managed to work that back) until this latest deal.

 

[Smellytele]

Yes, that has always been the case in both directions (a few unhappy businesses did get stiffed in some early times, but the next owner always managed to work that back) until this latest deal.

Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...

 

[VTKilarney]

Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...

I know that on least one occasion the support from the community kept the ski area from closing.

 

[the original trailboss]

Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...

The history/explanation (multiple owners each with their own ideals,ideas) for the second part of your question is beyond a Readers Digest version, but it is fair to say that both the community and the ski area have always worked together for a common purpose of improving the economy of the area. For example, the mountain's longest-term owner (an absolutely wonderful man,by the way) chose to invest in land around the ski area, rather than ski area infrastructure, in order to prevent Burke from becoming another Stowe. As a result, when he was forced into bankruptcy, the ski area owned 2,000 acres of land around a lagging infrastructure. The next owner, a real estate developer, saw 2,000 acres of land (much developable) that just happened to have a ski area in the backyard, etc., etc., etc.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...

I almost think this may be the thinking behind "Q".
However is trying to maintain all those strong bridges with the local community somehow more expensive than the approach they are currently taking. Maybe ?

I know that on least one occasion the support from the community kept the ski area from closing.

But it didn't keep the owner that was losing the mountain from going out of business.

 

[fbrissette]

I almost think this may be the thinking behind "Q".
However is trying to maintain all those strong bridges with the local community somehow more expensive than the approach they are currently taking. Maybe ?

But it didn't keep the owner that was losing the mountain from going out of business.

With the new hotel and plans to make Burke into a four season resorts, we are in a different paradigm in which working with KT and the community becomes even more a necessity IMO.

You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.

 

[VTKilarney]

You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.

You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Another way to look at this is the whole process has really helped businesses startup and grow in the village. Yes, a large part of that is due to the presence of Kingdom Trails. However, that expansion in town will only really help the mountain in the end. A thriving village can be a big part of the draw to the mountain. The lack of a real village is one of the big knocks against places like Jay, Mt Snow, etc. While places like Stowe, Okemo, and Sugarbush all receive praise for their vibrant villages.
I also wonder if they will be able to claim a lot of the jobs that are being created in the village when it comes time to count them up for the EB5 qualifications (what am I talking about, of course those will be claimed!).

 

[the original trailboss]

Another way to look at this is the whole process has really helped businesses startup and grow in the village. Yes, a large part of that is due to the presence of Kingdom Trails. However, that expansion in town will only really help the mountain in the end. A thriving village can be a big part of the draw to the mountain. The lack of a real village is one of the big knocks against places like Jay, Mt Snow, etc. While places like Stowe, Okemo, and Sugarbush all receive praise for their vibrant villages.
I also wonder if they will be able to claim a lot of the jobs that are being created in the village when it comes time to count them up for the EB5 qualifications (what am I talking about, of course those will be claimed!).

The formula they are allowed to use goes back further than those jobs - it can include additional supplier manpower required to support this gigantic uptick in business due (of course) to the ski area. Of course, Kingdom Trails, VAST, and a beautiful place to be has nothing to do with that growth.............

 

[thetrailboss]

IMO the potential of East Burke lies in the KT a lot more than in the mountain. There are lots of better/equivalent mountains to ski in Quebec and New England. There are lots of better/equivalent lift-served mountain biking facilities elsewhere. KT is what makes this place unique.

To me it is crystal clear that for everyone to really thrive optimally, QBurke needs to work with KT and the community. It is beyond me that they can't see that. Dumb dumb dumb.

+ 1

 

[thetrailboss]

Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?

YES.

Burke has ALWAYS had a close relationship with the community. When Northern Star went bankrupt in 2000, BMA and the locals scrambled to reopen it. They were in the black that season. Coincidence? Maybe. It was a great snow year. But locals came to support the mountain. It's always, by and large, been a local's mountain.

 

[thetrailboss]

With the new hotel and plans to make Burke into a four season resorts, we are in a different paradigm in which working with KT and the community becomes even more a necessity IMO.

You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.

Bingo

 

[thetrailboss]

you guys are like bitter ex girlfriends

heres the deal- you nattering nabobs of negativity are missing the point- nobody cares outside your coccoon!

Despite all the progress at burke, all the stuff that could have (perhaps may, but I think we can all agree less and less so) derailed this project with EB 5, the idiot Q's, etc., its all steaming along. But the tone here is the exact same as TWO YEARS AGO.

I would offer up your insights are clouded by your closeness, and of course level of caring, which is obvious.

Let me be more succint- nobody cares!

the vast majority of people I know who ski burke could not give a rats behind about the drama you have all described, fretted over, and, agreeably, experienced. this is my subjective view, versus yours of constantly finding windmills of disrespect to tilt at.

Let me empiracally prove my point. Lets all agree that the population of East Burke, in fact, the whole NEK, never goes to Burke again.

Population of East Burke- 130
Population of NEK (last census)- about 64,000

Population of Worcester Ma- 182,000

Guess what? people in Worcester ski, and nobody cares about what Q said two years ago, or if old employees have been mistreated.

You guys are viewing the world through a viewpoint of your choosing, not saying your viewpoint is wrong (although I have been skiing burke a loooong time and dont agree at all with opinions that it is some kind of wasteland up there, as I have had zero conscience notice that things are now "different") but it is limited. I repeat- the people that i know who ski burke from out of state dont even know about what you all do, and dont care one bit. And that is the target audience.

carry on misanthropes

As to the Worcester argument, hate to say it, but that market already goes to other places--namely Okemo, Snow, Wachusett, Crotched, etc. Burke has always tried to get the SNE market, but it is very competitive and tough, especially in a tough snow year. And the Burke market is, by and large, very local.

 

[the original trailboss]

As to the Worcester argument, hate to say it, but that market already goes to other places--namely Okemo, Snow, Wachusett, Crotched, etc. Burke has always tried to get the SNE market, but it is very competitive and tough, especially in a tough snow year. And the Burke market is, by and large, very local.

Was very local ......

 

[VTKilarney]

Was very local ......

A lot of food and beverage business from locals has left, but the local skiers are a rather captive audience.

 

[Smellytele]

YES.

Burke has ALWAYS had a close relationship with the community. When Northern Star went bankrupt in 2000, BMA and the locals scrambled to reopen it. They were in the black that season. Coincidence? Maybe. It was a great snow year. But locals came to support the mountain. It's always, by and large, been a local's mountain.

Doesn't sound like it helped owners only the mountain. Owner after owner went belly up. Things needed to change. They could not stay the same. The one owner bought the property around the place and went belly up. Maybe the area is seeing an uptick in businesses now because of the potential of business increasing because of the hotel. Narrow thinking has never help the mountain nor the area. Feelings were hurt and now people lash out.

 

[faQ]

A lot of food and beverage business from locals has left, but the local skiers are a rather captive audience.

Bingo.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

 

[thetrailboss]

Doesn't sound like it helped owners only the mountain. Owner after owner went belly up. Things needed to change. They could not stay the same. The one owner bought the property around the place and went belly up. Maybe the area is seeing an uptick in businesses now because of the potential of business increasing because of the hotel. Narrow thinking has never help the mountain nor the area. Feelings were hurt and now people lash out.

Of course they have helped the owners. Not to go into too much detail, but there is more than meets the eye with the history of Burke. The owner that OTB referred to was Doug Kitchell. He ran the mountain from the 1960's through the mid-1980's. He went under because of the economy and downturn in the real estate markets. The next owner, Quinn (not Ginn), had similar issues and borrowed too much money. Bear Kingdom Limited (1991-1995) had NO intention of actually running the place--the owner was using it to launder money and when Interpol went after him it all ended. In fact, locals gave him temporary financing and loans in 1993 or so to keep things running. Northern Star? They had some bad winters and were not able to make loan payments on snowmaking. They could not refinance. Locals also tried to help them. Their season pass rates were pretty high but they did (heavily) discounted promos for the locals. This equals a loss. That brings us to 2000 when BMA and their "local angel" bought the mountain and got the community VERY involved. That lasted from 2000-2005. Bobby Ginn/Lubert-Adler: that was the real estate bubble that did them in. They did offer reasonably priced season passes. They pretty much relied on locals to keep somewhat of a steady, albeit small, flow of business. That brings us to Q and they are struggling probably worse than before but they won't tell us of course. Why bite the hand that feeds you?

You are right, locals alone cannot sustain the operation as it is, but it sure as hell is a big chunk of the business and certainly has been used as a foundation for many years. It's easier to add business to existing customer-base than to completely start over. But what do I know? I apparently am a negative naive NEKer.