Big Burke announcement

[mbedle]

I would take that as an indication of how the community feels towards the current ownership group. Screwing the area schools etc.tends to rub the movers and shakers of a community the wrong way.

Here's the thing.....from May through October (ie 50% of the year) the mountain is a distant second in draws to the area. Without KT, the bike park would probably not get nearly the ridership it does even now. In the summer, no one goes up the mountain to spend their beer money up there (see the Tiki bar et al). So if they are going to make it work for the summer, it will largely be from wedding revenue and the odd corporation that might have an event there. Given how openly hostile VT can be to larger corporations, I'm trying to figure out what companies of size would book a convention center at Burke. Why bypass the hundreds of other worthy options elsewhere closer to said corporation?

There is still a large rift between the community and Q.....that video is subtle evidence of that.

The mountain will work potentially, but not like it could have with better relations with the locals.

As for taxes, hasn't Q already been trying to duck out of some of those as well?

Sorry - forgot to post a "Tigger Warning" first....

The tax issue was a disagreement on what taxes should be paid on an unfinished hotel. Moving forward, after the hotel is complete, that should no longer be an issue.

And yes, I would most definitely take the video as a snub to the resort. Actually kind of surprises the Q Burke isn't going after him for using the video of the resort in the commercial. Maybe because it is a .org, or that the shots were taking up in Darling state park, they can get away with it. One way to look at this is the resort has the potential to offer far more to the local community than the community has to offer the resort. Its not like Kingdom Trails pays any great tax to the county/ or Burke community and they certainly are not bringing in a ton of overnight guess that are staying local. I'm guessing that they fill the few restaurants in town on the weekends, but that isn't really benefiting the locals on whole. The town needs room taxes, sales taxes and real estate taxes to survive and grow. KT provides very little of that no matter how many people or there riding their bikes.

At this point in the game, one party has to give and I just think that it should be the community. I also think it is important for everyone to put their indifferences aside (whether imagined or real) and support the resort. If it does fail, that is not only going to hurt the owners (maybe), but the community (loss of tax revenue), local businesses (loss of winter income) and skiers. But, if they like, they can just keep pissing on the fire and hope that it doesn't go out eventually. I would think making some mugs with the name of the resort on them and paying a fee to use their training facilities would be worth having the resort still viable. I guess Burke academy students could train somewhere else and the local artisan can continue to sell his Burke Mountain mugs at the local store to the bike riders that want a Kingdom Trails mug.

 

[the original trailboss]

The community is not the culprit here ....

 

[mbedle]

Never said the community was a fault. Just saying that life is not always fair and you sometimes have to do things that are distasteful for the better good of all.

 

[deadheadskier]

That olive branch has to come from the Qs. They are the ones that created the rift.

 

[River19]

Its not like Kingdom Trails pays any great tax to the county/ or Burke community and they certainly are not bringing in a ton of overnight guess that are staying local. I'm guessing that they fill the few restaurants in town on the weekends, but that isn't really benefiting the locals on whole. The town needs room taxes, sales taxes and real estate taxes to survive and grow. KT provides very little of that no matter how many people or there riding their bikes.

I can only partially agree here; KT brings in a boatload of overnight guests, any claim otherwise is misinformed. While a good portion utilize the campgrounds, most inns, rental homes, rental condos etc. have solid occupancy rates. They drop cash in all the local E. Burke shops, restaurants, the Tiki bar, the food truck, the ice cream stand, E. Burke Market, etc. Add in all the busniess they drop in Lyndonville at the Pizza Man, ML Diner, Bagel Depot, Whites, Lyndonville HOP, Village Sport Shop, The Redemp, Cumbies, Lynn Burke, EveryBuddy's, etc. and that summer traffic drives a significant amount of business in the area, a heck of a lot more than the mountain alone ever did even in winter.

I'm close friends with the owners of a few of the businesses I've mentioned above and they will readily tell you summer is by far the busiest time and they owe the bulk of it to KT.

However, this isn't a KT vs. Q argument I'm making here necessarily, I think the ideal world is the heavy business from KT driving the summer economy supplemented with the bike park on the mountain and then the mountain providing a robust level of winter traffic through many of the same businesses. I think the community at large, and Q would have benefited even more, and more quickly, had they done a better job of working with the great local community instead of driving a large wedge in the relationship.

 

[ironhippy]

I am more involved in skiing than mountain biking, but I have heard about Kingdom Trails from numerous people in relation to mountain biking, but I have never once heard someone talk about the Burke Mountain ski area.

On the east coast, there is nothing else around like Kingdom Trails, however I would have to drive by a half dozen major ski areas in order to get to QBurke.

 

[oldtimer]

Mbedle- I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here. The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.

That said, you are totally missing the human side of this. Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends. My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK. BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain? Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management. Bad management hurts real people. It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance. They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world. The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space? Human cost: every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance. They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales. Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA, the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train- about zero. The benefit to the kids if they have the space- huge. So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can? to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY- this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with. Staffing- do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.

This is not simply people resisting change. This is a community rising up and saying that they do not like being pissed on. There are times in life when a self respecting person does not act financially pragmatically because they cannot stand the stench. Yes, any improvement to the local economy is welcome- but not if the human cost is too high.

We all know that the mountain has never been financially successful and we will miss it if it is shuttered- but groveling to an a-hole is not in the character of those of us who chose to live in the NEK.

 

[dlague]

I am more involved in skiing than mountain biking, but I have heard about Kingdom Trails from numerous people in relation to mountain biking, but I have never once heard someone talk about the Burke Mountain ski area.

On the east coast, there is nothing else around like Kingdom Trails, however I would have to drive by a half dozen major ski areas in order to get to QBurke.

To you point those coming from the south would drive by Highlands, Killington and other lift served areas.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

 

[River19]

To you point those coming from the south would drive by Highlands, Killington and other lift served areas.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

Exactly, it is the core KT system that brings people and the Lift Served stuff is an added sweetener, not the main attraction for folks from away. Now that more ski hills (Berkshire East etc.) are doing down hill lift served closer to southern New England residents, the attractiveness of KT's trail system and the town (tiki bar etc.) is what brings people in.

 

[farlep99]

Mbedle- I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here. The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.

That said, you are totally missing the human side of this. Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends. My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK. BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain? Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management. Bad management hurts real people. It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance. They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world. The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space? Human cost: every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance. They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales. Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA, the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train- about zero. The benefit to the kids if they have the space- huge. So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can? to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY- this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with. Staffing- do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.

This is not simply people resisting change. This is a community rising up and saying that they do not like being pissed on. There are times in life when a self respecting person does not act financially pragmatically because they cannot stand the stench. Yes, any improvement to the local economy is welcome- but not if the human cost is too high.

We all know that the mountain has never been financially successful and we will miss it if it is shuttered- but groveling to an a-hole is not in the character of those of us who chose to live in the NEK.

Well put. Best post i've read about the community/burke management in this whole thread

 

[mbedle]

Oldtimer - well put in your response. Its not that personally I don't understand the human aspect of what has occurred at Burke, I was more just approaching it from a cold hearted capitalistic side. I'm not a cold hearted bastard, just offering an alternative view. I don't believe that what the owners have done was all in the best interest of maintaining relationships with surrounding businesses and the community members. But I also believe that, in their eyes, as a owner of a struggling ski resort, they made those decisions in an effort to grow Q Burke Mountain Resort and get it out of the red and into the black. Thereby, continuing to provide a local ski resort, that the community has grown to love. Sometimes as a business owner you have to make some really hard decisions that you know are going to hurt some people. Typically, that includes laying people off, decreasing benefits and cleaning house. Those types of actions are not unique to Q Burke. I run a very small business with 15 employees and during bad years, I've had to lay people off, let people go, cut salaries and decrease 401K benefits to employee plans. Once thing recovered, we brought one guy back, and started increasing salaries and contributions to 401K plans. I'm not going to try and list out everything that the owners have done that drove a spike between them and the community. From a business perspective, some appear to be outright wrong - cutting ties with KT is a big one. Other appear to be typical moves a company takes to help recover from financial downfall - asking local schools to pay to use the training facilities, cutting salaries and staff. As far as SJA not agreeing to pay, it is a little hard for me to swallow given the amount of money it costs to attend that school. But I can see your point that if BMA is there, it shouldn't really costs that much additional. But in that case, that is not really fair to BMA, if they are covering the whole rental bill. Others that have been discussed in this form are nonsense and are more related to personal feelings being hurt or the over-reaching notion that skiers at this resort should have some huge say in how things are run and named.

 

[deadheadskier]

All of that would make sense IF the talent they brought in was more capable than that which they let go.

Ary has been a complete disaster as a manager. If Q senior was making actual business based decisions, he'd fire his son.

 

[oldtimer]

Mbedle--- yes. I agree with 90% of what you say.

I too run a business that was small and struggled for years with all of the same issues and hard choices. Today we are larger and have a bigger margin for error in bad years, but we still have layoffs and still make choices that are painful. BUT we NEVER lie. And given the thoughtful nature of your responses, I expect that is true with you.

This cannot be said about the current management. Some of the lies have been forgivable in terms of trying to keep business matters in house. Some are blatant & w.o purpose other than self aggrandizement etc. Some of what Q-jr says does does is way outside of the hard business decision realm. And that is where the stench comes in. If this were pure ineptitude and incompetence you would not have the reaction. (after all- we have seen plenty of that over the years). The negativity is a reaction to Q-jr's utter disdain for all who are here and all who have preceded his brilliant leadership.

Much would be forgiven if Dad or Bill Stenger came around and said " we made a mistake and let's work together." As it stands now, picking up a shovel and pitching in, even by just being openly supportive, means I have to bring the stench into my other circles of life. I hope they are successful but cannot undo what I know about Q's level of respect for me and this community.

thanks for bringing a reasoned and thoughtful message into the conversation. At the end of the day,we are both right.

 

[thetrailboss]

Mbedle- I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here. The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.

That said, you are totally missing the human side of this. Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends. My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK. BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain? Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management. Bad management hurts real people. It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance. They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world. The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space? Human cost: every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance. They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales. Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA, the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train- about zero. The benefit to the kids if they have the space- huge. So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can? to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY- this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with. Staffing- do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.

This is not simply people resisting change. This is a community rising up and saying that they do not like being pissed on. There are times in life when a self respecting person does not act financially pragmatically because they cannot stand the stench. Yes, any improvement to the local economy is welcome- but not if the human cost is too high.

We all know that the mountain has never been financially successful and we will miss it if it is shuttered- but groveling to an a-hole is not in the character of those of us who chose to live in the NEK.

Spot on.

 

[thetrailboss]

Sorry - forgot to post a "Tigger Warning" first....

The tax issue was a disagreement on what taxes should be paid on an unfinished hotel. Moving forward, after the hotel is complete, that should no longer be an issue.

And yes, I would most definitely take the video as a snub to the resort. Actually kind of surprises the Q Burke isn't going after him for using the video of the resort in the commercial. Maybe because it is a .org, or that the shots were taking up in Darling state park, they can get away with it. One way to look at this is the resort has the potential to offer far more to the local community than the community has to offer the resort. Its not like Kingdom Trails pays any great tax to the county/ or Burke community and they certainly are not bringing in a ton of overnight guess that are staying local. I'm guessing that they fill the few restaurants in town on the weekends, but that isn't really benefiting the locals on whole. The town needs room taxes, sales taxes and real estate taxes to survive and grow. KT provides very little of that no matter how many people or there riding their bikes.

At this point in the game, one party has to give and I just think that it should be the community. I also think it is important for everyone to put their indifferences aside (whether imagined or real) and support the resort. If it does fail, that is not only going to hurt the owners (maybe), but the community (loss of tax revenue), local businesses (loss of winter income) and skiers. But, if they like, they can just keep pissing on the fire and hope that it doesn't go out eventually. I would think making some mugs with the name of the resort on them and paying a fee to use their training facilities would be worth having the resort still viable. I guess Burke academy students could train somewhere else and the local artisan can continue to sell his Burke Mountain mugs at the local store to the bike riders that want a Kingdom Trails mug.

With all due respect, I don't think you really understand what is going on with Burke or this issue.

As to the video, they DO mention Burke Mountain. That's pretty obvious. I believe that my sources did tell me that Q decided to leave the Chamber and not do anything with them. Hence perhaps why they are not named specifically. FWIW Q has been downright mean with local organizations for no apparent gain. No donations, no outreach, nothing. Instead he and Dad openly slandered the person who basically gave the money to BMA to run the place for years. Nice guys.

As to KT, you're wrong as other have pointed out.

As said, this is not a normal "clean house" ownership move that folks dislike. Instead Q declared war on many fronts. He ripped up the deal with KT for the lift accessed trails that KT built. He's fired, or driven out, almost every qualified local employee. He's openly laughed at locals who have interviewed for jobs with the mountain. He's now twice tried to retroactively bill the local high schools for slope time at an exorbitant rate (resulting in one leaving for Cannon). He's demonstrated that he has NO CLUE how to run a ski area. So all the pain for what gain?

And the "well they are going to make it up by getting more tourists" misses the point. Burke has been at about 70-75k skier days for several years because those are locals. It's a hell of a lot easier to get to 100k or so when you already have 70-75k to start with. In this tight market you are not going to "steal" 100k skier days from others....especially when you can't make snow or run the place.

I like how you play devil's advocate, but it is just not the situation here.

 

[VTKilarney]

I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon. I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff. I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.

 

[VTKilarney]

I just checked the Academy website and they are listing their "home" races as being at Q Burke. So it appears that they have come to terms. If that is indeed the case you can thank Stenger.

 

[oldtimer]

This is a clear illustration of what is wrong with Q'-jr and thus why many of us are not cheer leaders. It is perfectly fine that we do not know the details of their relationship with SJA today. For most of us, it is none of our business. But, if SJA has "reached an agreement" with junior not one among us would trust that for sure, on Dec 12th, Jasn 12th, Feb 12th etc that he would honor the agreement. There is way, way, too much evidence that if he is calling the shots no one can trust him.

I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon. I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff. I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.

 

[River19]

And, wasn't Jr supposed to take a reduced role? I have seen more and more evidence that has not really happened.....

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon. I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff. I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.

On my visit I heard that both LI and SJA were going to be there this season thanks to Stenger's efforts once again to stop the invoices.