Big Burke announcement

[VTKilarney]

Suggesting Ary somehow put this girl up to calling the place Q as some sort of gesture of misogyny is a stretch allegation.

That is not at all what I suggested. Go back and read what I wrote. Misogyny in the work place is usually much more subtle than you are inferring.

Again, I have no idea if there is any misogyny at Q Burke. It just gave me the creeps, that's all. It may not have given you the creeps. We are all different - and my barometer is obviously not the same as yours.

My only point was that it is a good idea to NOT write blog posts that could possibly give someone the impression that I had - regardless of the accuracy of the perception.

 

[deadheadskier]

That is not at all what I suggested. Go back and read what I wrote. Misogyny in the work place is usually much more subtle than you are inferring.

Again, I have no idea if there is any misogyny at Q Burke. It just gave me the creeps, that's all. It may not have given you the creeps. We are all different - and my barometer is obviously not the same as yours.

My only point was that it is a good idea to NOT write blog posts that could possibly give someone the impression that I had - regardless of the accuracy of the perception.

If a male made that blog post, you would have not jumped to that conclusion.

 

[VTKilarney]

If a male made that blog post, you would have not jumped to that conclusion.

Correct, because it wouldn't have been an indicator of the culture for females. But a male didn't write that post.

All I am saying is that it didn't sit well with me. But my radar may be way off.

 

[deadheadskier]

Correct, because it wouldn't have been an indicator of the culture for females. But a male didn't write that post..

So, you make gender based judgements?

I guess my overall point is that there are plenty of things to be critical of regarding Burke and this woman's blog post. Doing mental gymnastics to find something else like this is completely unnecessary and basically is just piling on for the sake of piling on unless vetted to be true. It really wasn't worth going there. It makes me question your character more than Ary or the author.

Otherwise I agree with much of what you said.

 

[VTKilarney]

So, you make gender based judgements?

It's not just me. Courts do too. We don't insist that women in the workplace perceive everything exactly the same as men do. That was last acceptable in the 1950's or thereabouts.

You may find this article enlightening: http://schoolworkhelper.net/sexual-harassment-malefemale-differences-in-perceptions/

But your overall point is well taken. I did not mean for this issue to be the primary issue. I was just sharing that it made me uncomfortable.

 

[AdironRider]

So, you make gender based judgements?

I guess my overall point is that there are plenty of things to be critical of regarding Burke and this woman's blog post. Doing mental gymnastics to find something else like this is completely unnecessary and basically is just piling on for the sake of piling on unless vetted to be true. It really wasn't worth going there. It makes me question your character more than Ary or the author.

Otherwise I agree with much of what you said.

This whole thread is piling on an already massive pile up.

While I would do things differently than Q, just like many others here, I think a lot of folks are delusional to think Burke is going to magically become a major player in the Northeast as long as Q gets out of the way. It will never even be Jay Peak, which despite all the EB-5 money is an also ran compared to Killington, Mt. Snow, Okemo, et al in terms of skier visits and revenue.

The misogny comment by Dead is spot on, there is a whole lot of hate in this thread and its leading people to places that are just figments of their imaginations.

The mountain has never been successful, going back decades of failed ownership groups. At best, its a quirky ski area with faults that give it character. Those faults are still faults.

I find very few ski areas have ownership groups that are loved. Hell, even out here in Jackson, where we have probably the best ownership in all of skiing, people still bitch. Last year it was the new Teton lift ruining the crags, this year they put a gaper ramp down Corbetts (true story and actually kinda bs) but you get the point.

I find it interesting how the ski industry seems to have an above average amount of armchair QBing. I certainly don't get this much flack for my knife company.

Q sounds like a shitty manager, but shitty managers a dime a dozen. Burke wasn't minting gold before, and I took some heat for this before as well, but I don't think all this local talent Q has pissed off were really all that competent to begin with. If they were, it wouldn't still be "failing".

Kind of one big metaphor for Vermont.

 

[snoseek]

Wait....gaper ramp down corbetts? What is this about?

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

 

[from_the_NEK]

I don't think anyone thinks Burke will be a "Major player in the northeast". But it should be able to make it to a sustainable level.

That was the goal of the current ownership, but the guy running things has done pretty much the opposite of what needed was to be done to achieve that goal.
I agree that every resort has regulars that complain about the way things are being done. I think that is a necessary occurrence that keeps ownership from being complacent.
However, what is happening at Burke under the "Q" is FAAAAAARRRRRRRR from just the day to day "I would do this instead" or "I can't believe they installed a lift here instead of over there" type of problems. Burke has been pretty much systematically destroyed to the point where I'm seriously questioning if it will even open next year. If it does, it will be nearly a complete ghost town with staff that has no idea how to keep the place physically functioning.

 

[AdironRider]

Wait....gaper ramp down corbetts? What is this about?

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

Well we are closed now but ski patrol was cutting a ramp down through the lip at the top of Corbetts all season. Its like a disney ride now.

I don't think anyone thinks Burke will be a "Major player in the northeast". But it should be able to make it to a sustainable level.

That was the goal of the current ownership, but the guy running things has done pretty much the opposite of what needed was to be done to achieve that goal.
I agree that every resort has regulars that complain about the way things are being done. I think that is a necessary occurrence that keeps ownership from being complacent.
However, what is happening at Burke under the "Q" is FAAAAAARRRRRRRR from just the day to day "I would do this instead" or "I can't believe they installed a lift here instead of over there" type of problems. Burke has been pretty much systematically destroyed to the point where I'm seriously questioning if it will even open next year. If it does, it will be nearly a complete ghost town with staff that has no idea how to keep the place physically functioning.

Ok major player in the Northeast was probably the wrong description, but outside of the hotel debacle, a lot of these problems sound like employees actually getting a manager who demands things from them, and they in turn not taking it well. Again, Q sounds like a shitty manager, but to bring up my metaphor for Vermont again, it sounds like a whole lot of employees would rather sit on their asses than actually collect a paycheck if it means actual work is involved. There aren't that many jobs up there for people to just quit out of protest.

I'm not saying everyone is useless, but come on, Burke was failing long before Q became involved. Shitty management exists everywhere, I'm sure everyone has dealt with it, and I doubt our solution to the problem was "I quit". (that lift mechanic getting a gig at Vail could easily just be he got a way better job offering by the way, which it is and if your career is being a lift mechanic, you would be stupid not to take that job).

So yeah, I don't think everyone is clamoring for it to become Okemo, but Burke has a lot of challenges outside of Q himself, the workforce sounds like one of them.

That doesn't even start down the list of lackluster snowfall, farther from major metropolitan areas than pretty much every other ski resort in the Northeast, the list goes on.

 

[VTKilarney]

One of the frustrations is that just up the road you have a mountain that is run incredibly well - Jay Peak. Since Ary Sr. is involved with both, it feels as if Q Burke has been left out to pasture.

I have no idea what year-to-year skier visits were like at Jay Peak compared to Q Burke, but I can tell you that based on the time that I spent at Jay Peak this winter, it felt MUCH more "business as usual" whereas Q Burke showed a significant drop in skier visits. So it can't just be explained away by the weather.

I've said it once, and I will say it again. Q Burke needs to get that hotel open. I hope that the parties get things sorted out sooner than later. We've come way too far to have that building sit idle. For all of the justified negativity, getting that hotel open will be the biggest thing that has happened to Burke in a very long time. It would be nice to see a major step forward, rather than just steps taken back.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Yep blame the "lazy employees"

Now your just trolling us.

Quote from a now former employee's describing her typical day...

my department was so understaffed that I was cooking breakfast sandwiches at 7am, waiting tables during the day, running cashier, and bartending and closing the Tam at night...

The Tamarack stopped serving around 9:00 and if she was closing that meant she was likely there until after 10:00PM. Yep, she was lazy :roll:

 

[VTKilarney]

Ok major player in the Northeast was probably the wrong description, but outside of the hotel debacle, a lot of these problems sound like employees actually getting a manager who demands things from them, and they in turn not taking it well. Again, Q sounds like a shitty manager, but to bring up my metaphor for Vermont again, it sounds like a whole lot of employees would rather sit on their asses than actually collect a paycheck if it means actual work is involved. There aren't that many jobs up there for people to just quit out of protest.

I'm not saying everyone is useless, but come on, Burke was failing long before Q became involved. Shitty management exists everywhere, I'm sure everyone has dealt with it, and I doubt our solution to the problem was "I quit". (that lift mechanic getting a gig at Vail could easily just be he got a way better job offering by the way, which it is and if your career is being a lift mechanic, you would be stupid not to take that job). .

Blaming Burke's problems on its employees is WAAAAY off the mark.

 

[thetrailboss]

This whole thread is piling on an already massive pile up.

I like you AR, but if this is what you think, then why bother? I don't think you have any connection to Burke at all let alone any real understanding.

While I would do things differently than Q, just like many others here, I think a lot of folks are delusional to think Burke is going to magically become a major player in the Northeast as long as Q gets out of the way. It will never even be Jay Peak, which despite all the EB-5 money is an also ran compared to Killington, Mt. Snow, Okemo, et al in terms of skier visits and revenue.

That's not what folks are saying. At least not the comments I've seen. They are at 75k. They need to get to about 125-150k ideally.

The misogny comment by Dead is spot on, there is a whole lot of hate in this thread and its leading people to places that are just figments of their imaginations.

Honestly if you disagree with a poster than PM that poster.

The mountain has never been successful, going back decades of failed ownership groups. At best, its a quirky ski area with faults that give it character. Those faults are still faults.

Not sure I agree with this comment. There is nothing inherently bad about the mountain itself. The ownership groups have lacked one thing or another.

I find very few ski areas have ownership groups that are loved. Hell, even out here in Jackson, where we have probably the best ownership in all of skiing, people still bitch. Last year it was the new Teton lift ruining the crags, this year they put a gaper ramp down Corbetts (true story and actually kinda bs) but you get the point.

I understand your point, but calling Kemmerer, a millionaire if not billionaire that owns one ski area, as the "best ownership in all of skiing" is a bit of a stretch. You need to give credit to lots of other folks who have been in the ski biz a long time and have done very well. Some that own multiple areas. Are they all loved? No. But are they successful? Yes. You also really do not understand just what has happened with Burke and Q. Ary is downright hostile to his customers and locals. That is eons away from the successful business folks to which you refer.

Q sounds like a shitty manager, but shitty managers a dime a dozen. Burke wasn't minting gold before, and I took some heat for this before as well, but I don't think all this local talent Q has pissed off were really all that competent to begin with. If they were, it wouldn't still be "failing".

Kind of one big metaphor for Vermont.

Wow. Again, you really don't get it. It's too bad that J-Hole is closed because, with all due respect, I think you need to find something to do and focus on things you know rather than coming in and railing on a mountain that you don't get. I get the comment about VTK's post, but take it up with him.

I get your schtick and it is entertaining, but I just think you missed the mark here.

 

[oldtimer]

A-R:
Your point is well taken. BUT as was said above, this not the regular bitching. Nor is it lazy employees finally having a real boss.

This has been arguably the worst case of employee management I have ever seen. And even if it was bad apples, his treatment of his customers is no better. I attended the last season pass holders' meeting. He and GM number 9 stood before us and flat out lied about the hotel funds. Ary pounded his hands on the table and laughed at us for inquiring as to why the owners had not ponied up the funds to pay off the GC and open the hotel. He was emphatic that it would be ILLEGAL for the US based developers to put cash into the development. When pushed on the subject he told us we didn't know what we were talking about. As it turns out, the crux of the current state investigation is why the development team has not made the investment they are OBLIGATED to make. The man is a lier. I suspect that the family has taken a fair cut of the EB-5 funds as management fees. Alas, the chickens may be coming to roost w/r/t the way the developers have acted. This means Ary JR- he is not a good business man. He is not a good boss. This is not "the locals" bitching. He is either incredibly stupid, or devious. maybe both.

Well we are closed now but ski patrol was cutting a ramp down through the lip at the top of Corbetts all season. Its like a disney ride now.



Ok major player in the Northeast was probably the wrong description, but outside of the hotel debacle, a lot of these problems sound like employees actually getting a manager who demands things from them, and they in turn not taking it well. Again, Q sounds like a shitty manager, but to bring up my metaphor for Vermont again, it sounds like a whole lot of employees would rather sit on their asses than actually collect a paycheck if it means actual work is involved. There aren't that many jobs up there for people to just quit out of protest.

I'm not saying everyone is useless, but come on, Burke was failing long before Q became involved. Shitty management exists everywhere, I'm sure everyone has dealt with it, and I doubt our solution to the problem was "I quit". (that lift mechanic getting a gig at Vail could easily just be he got a way better job offering by the way, which it is and if your career is being a lift mechanic, you would be stupid not to take that job).

So yeah, I don't think everyone is clamoring for it to become Okemo, but Burke has a lot of challenges outside of Q himself, the workforce sounds like one of them.

That doesn't even start down the list of lackluster snowfall, farther from major metropolitan areas than pretty much every other ski resort in the Northeast, the list goes on.

 

[AdironRider]

Yep blame the "lazy employees"

Now your just trolling us.

Quote from a now former employee's describing her typical day...



The Tamarack stopped serving around 9:00 and if she was closing that meant she was likely there until after 10:00PM. Yep, she was lazy :roll:

I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument.

I like you AR, but if this is what you think, then why bother? I don't think you have any connection to Burke at all let alone any real understanding.



That's not what folks are saying. At least not the comments I've seen. They are at 75k. They need to get to about 125-150k ideally.



Honestly if you disagree with a poster than PM that poster.



Not sure I agree with this comment. There is nothing inherently bad about the mountain itself. The ownership groups have lacked one thing or another.



I understand your point, but calling Kemmerer, a millionaire if not billionaire that owns one ski area, as the "best ownership in all of skiing" is a bit of a stretch. You need to give credit to lots of other folks who have been in the ski biz a long time and have done very well. Some that own multiple areas. Are they all loved? No. But are they successful? Yes. You also really do not understand just what has happened with Burke and Q. Ary is downright hostile to his customers and locals. That is eons away from the successful business folks to which you refer.



Wow. Again, you really don't get it. It's too bad that J-Hole is closed because, with all due respect, I think you need to find something to do and focus on things you know rather than coming in and railing on a mountain that you don't get. I get the comment about VTK's post, but take it up with him.

I get your schtick and it is entertaining, but I just think you missed the mark here.

In reread I realize I am coming off as pretty much blaming the victims and backing up Q, which is not how I feel. He's a terrible manager, no way around it.

But I do feel that my point still stands that Burke wasn't being successful prior. You can keep blaming ownership for this, or that, but eventually one needs to look in the mirror.

Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats. That or they can wait for Q to do it, or slow play for a new ownership group, but that hasn't worked for them yet. Otherwise the status quo shall remain.

I think the locals have proven they can do this with the MTB network they built from the ground up. Only problem is MTB doesn't really bring the economic return (or potential) that a successful ski resort can. MTB's skew young and cheap overall. Why can't they do this for Burke?

That was my point. The situation sucks, so the best course of action is to work around challenges and make it better.

 

[snoseek]

^^^maybe not the money skiing brings in but i think you may be underestimating the money mtb brings in. Things are bumping during mtb season in the area.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

 

[oldtimer]

AR--
The locals have bucked up for several years. See my post #6986 -- We have had enough. He has had staff be INCREDIBLY loyal after being treated like shit. He has ruined peoples' lives. He has lied to each and all of us. At some point, enough is enough and that is what the Sher facebook page is about and what this thread has turned it. I wish I could share 1/2 of what the now unemployed senior staff has told me in confidence. He is not good people,and the fish rots from the head.

I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument.



In reread I realize I am coming off as pretty much blaming the victims and backing up Q, which is not how I feel. He's a terrible manager, no way around it.

But I do feel that my point still stands that Burke wasn't being successful prior. You can keep blaming ownership for this, or that, but eventually one needs to look in the mirror.

Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats. That or they can wait for Q to do it, or slow play for a new ownership group, but that hasn't worked for them yet. Otherwise the status quo shall remain.

I think the locals have proven they can do this with the MTB network they built from the ground up. Only problem is MTB doesn't really bring the economic return (or potential) that a successful ski resort can. MTB's skew young and cheap overall. Why can't they do this for Burke?

That was my point. The situation sucks, so the best course of action is to work around challenges and make it better.

 

[thetrailboss]

One of the frustrations is that just up the road you have a mountain that is run incredibly well - Jay Peak. Since Ary Sr. is involved with both, it feels as if Q Burke has been left out to pasture.

I have no idea what year-to-year skier visits were like at Jay Peak compared to Q Burke, but I can tell you that based on the time that I spent at Jay Peak this winter, it felt MUCH more "business as usual" whereas Q Burke showed a significant drop in skier visits. So it can't just be explained away by the weather.

I've said it once, and I will say it again. Q Burke needs to get that hotel open. I hope that the parties get things sorted out sooner than later. We've come way too far to have that building sit idle. For all of the justified negativity, getting that hotel open will be the biggest thing that has happened to Burke in a very long time. It would be nice to see a major step forward, rather than just steps taken back.

My understanding is that Ary, Sr. is NOT very active in Jay. That is Bill's show. Ariel is the money.

 

[thetrailboss]

I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument.



In reread I realize I am coming off as pretty much blaming the victims and backing up Q, which is not how I feel. He's a terrible manager, no way around it.

But I do feel that my point still stands that Burke wasn't being successful prior. You can keep blaming ownership for this, or that, but eventually one needs to look in the mirror.

Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats. That or they can wait for Q to do it, or slow play for a new ownership group, but that hasn't worked for them yet. Otherwise the status quo shall remain.

I think the locals have proven they can do this with the MTB network they built from the ground up. Only problem is MTB doesn't really bring the economic return (or potential) that a successful ski resort can. MTB's skew young and cheap overall. Why can't they do this for Burke?

That was my point. The situation sucks, so the best course of action is to work around challenges and make it better.

I agreed with your view....in 2013. Things are WAY beyond "buck up and make it work" now.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I'm breaking my "one reply" to AdironRider here just to post a rebuttal to this.

Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats.

This right here shows that you have no idea about this situation so you should probably stop making baseless accusations/assumptions about the locals and employees unless it is to ask questions to better understand what is going on.

The locals HAVE BEEN TRYING OUR BEST to work with "Q". However, he refuses to do so. Any criticism, even those brought in good faith and diplomatically, of his decisions just makes him double down and push his agenda that much harder. That is just it, Ary Jr will not work with the locals. Our hands are tied. At this point, the last thing we can do is boycott the place. Trust me when I say that no one really wants to resort to such a tactic but it is pretty much the only path left.