Big Burke announcement

[the original trailboss]

That is the reservation I have about the "things in the works". Local community leaders and legislators already know what a shit show Ary has produced at "Q"Burke employment-wise. But realistically they are powerless to do anything about it. Bringing state/national level legislators (Governor, US Senators, and Congressman) up to speed on the situation probably won't have much effect either. "Q"Burke is a private business. Legislators can wag their fingers at Ary but they really can't do anything either.

So it is probably going to boil down to approaching the "Q" and laying out the cards. Either Ary Jr goes and a mountain manager with some semblance of competence is brought in and allowed to mend fences and get the place back on its feet OR a large contingent of pass holders walk out the door and let nature take its course and the "Q" fails completely.

As I have said in earlier posts I am voting with my wallet and will boycott any and all Q events - Maybe an empty mountain and hotel and no $$ coming in will get somebody's attention. Anything less than that will result in pushback (again, and more ) only.

 

[burski]

That is the reservation I have about the "things in the works". Local community leaders and legislators already know what a shit show Ary has produced at "Q"Burke employment-wise. But realistically they are powerless to do anything about it. Bringing state/national level legislators (Governor, US Senators, and Congressman) up to speed on the situation probably won't have much effect either. "Q"Burke is a private business. Legislators can wag their fingers at Ary but they really can't do anything either.

So it is probably going to boil down to approaching the "Q" and laying out the cards. Either Ary Jr goes and a mountain manager with some semblance of competence is brought in and allowed to mend fences and get the place back on its feet OR a large contingent of pass holders walk out the door and let nature take its course and the "Q" fails completely.

As long as this management team is involved, there is no working with them. "Getting a GM" has already proven to be unfeasible, they micromanage and stay involved so in the end the only thing that changes is another GM is out of a job...

 

[BenedictGomez]

You people are all way overthinking this. Clan 'Q' isn't going to be running things for too much longer. When this goes south (and it will), it's going to go south in a hurry (it always does).

 

[yeggous]

You people are all way overthinking this. Clan 'Q' isn't going to be running things for too much longer. When this goes south (and it will), it's going to go south in a hurry (it always does).

Yes, this is the truth. And the mountain will likely sit closed for a season as a result as the legal log jam clears. I doubt it sits idle any longer than that as a mountain with two detachable lifts and a new hotel must have some value.

 

[BenedictGomez]

How many years do you amortize sheets and pillows over, anyway?

From my experience following this situation the last few years, my guess is Quiros buys sheets & pillows in Chinatown for $6.75, publicly tells people it's $675 Egyptian Cotton with 1000 thread count, and then capitalizes them as assets on the balance sheet.

 

[fbrissette]

Yes, this is the truth. And the mountain will likely sit closed for a season as a result as the legal log jam clears. I doubt it sits idle any longer than that as a mountain with two detachable lifts and a new hotel must have some value.

The hotel belongs to the EB5 corporation. They are going to want their money back. The mountain and lifts will be for sale but the hotel ? This is going to get messy.

 

[from_the_NEK]

This is going to get messy.

Analogy of the day:
The bag of poo has been on the doorstep for a while now. It has just been lit on fire. The doorbell is about to be rung. Then it gets really messy trying to stomp it out.

 

[VTKilarney]

I'm definitely looking at some indicators to see what is really going to happen.

For example, when will they advertise for mountain bike trail crew? When will they advertise for summer lift attendants? I've yet to see any of these positions posted. It may still be early, but if they are going to open they are going to have to do some hiring sooner than later.

 

[mbedle]

So, we are all hoping that the owners are going to listen to the locals and fire a family member under their pressure? What if they truly don't really care what the locals think and are looking to only market to the general public (make it into a destination resort, like most other areas in Vermont). Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this place been in bankruptcy/or for sale many times in the past? I am guessing that the owners realize that with such a small population in the NEK, that business model does not work anymore and that may explain the reason for the hotels/water park/biking/tennis/swimming pools/convention centers being built at Jay and Burke. If, and when they do get the hotel/convention center open, the revenue from those sources may far outweigh the revenue generated by the locals.

One bad scenario is they try to sell off the resort and hold onto only the hotel! That would put a damper on things getting done around the resort, basically cutting of a source of income they were depending on. Or worst yet, they close the resort, put the resort and hotel up for sale and no one touches it with a ten foot pole for ten plus years.

 

[thetrailboss]

So, we are all hoping that the owners are going to listen to the locals and fire a family member under their pressure? What if they truly don't really care what the locals think and are looking to only market to the general public (make it into a destination resort, like most other areas in Vermont). Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this place been in bankruptcy/or for sale many times in the past? I am guessing that the owners realize that with such a small population in the NEK, that business model does not work anymore and that may explain the reason for the hotels/water park/biking/tennis/swimming pools/convention centers being built at Jay and Burke. If, and when they do get the hotel/convention center open, the revenue from those sources may far outweigh the revenue generated by the locals.

One bad scenario is they try to sell off the resort and hold onto only the hotel! That would put a damper on things getting done around the resort, basically cutting of a source of income they were depending on. Or worst yet, they close the resort, put the resort and hotel up for sale and no one touches it with a ten foot pole for ten plus years.

With all due respect, I'm going to say what I said this morning to another poster, and that is that you don't seem really understand Burke and what is going on.

First, I think your "entitlement" comment was not meant to come off as douchey as it sounds. I think your point is that locals cannot take the mountain for granted. Nobody does. In 2000 it was the community who saved the mountain by volunteering, buying passes, etc. The mountain is a part of the community and always has been a part of it. Those 70k annual skiers and riders? Mostly locals.

That leads me to my second point and that is a "general marketing pitch" simply does not work. I don't think there is any dispute that either Ary or "someone" has decided to ignore the local market and go after this pot of gold that lies under the rainbow. Guess what? The ski industry is flat. There are already a lot of resorts competing for a flat number of guests. A lot are WAY ahead of Burke. It is a zero sum game and if they think that they are going to somehow "grab" these elusive guests then another resort is going to lose. Competition is just too tight.

They want to get to 150k skier days. In such a flat market you can't just burn the 70k that you've got and assume that 150k other folks will show up. And it is easier to get to 150k starting at 70k. I can honestly say that most of the resorts in Vermont of which I am aware (and a lot here in Utah) realize that their market is BOTH local and overnight/distant guests. They offer products for both. With the exception now of maybe Stowe most places rely on locals for some of their business. Hell, even Deer Valley markets a discount 5 and 10-day ticket package for locals. It is not at all realistic to chase after these mysterious and elusive "other" guests because they don't really exist right now.

Was Burke perfect before? No. Was it getting close? Yes. In 2012 when they sold to Q, they had 2 HSQ's, a decent snowmaking system that could run 70 guns at a time, a small but loyal market with goodwill built up resulting in 70k skier days and some number of summer bike days, and a good management team. Now we have poor or zero maintenance, a pissed off customer base, less skier days, less snowmaking capacity, zero goodwill, and incompetent management. I think there is reason to be concerned and to tell the ownership that things need to change or else they can expect far fewer ski days with or without the Hotel.

And let's be honest--they can't just run the Hotel without the resort and vice versa now. They both rely on each other.

Sorry if I am being frank, but I think that the ideas were a bit off here.

 

[thetrailboss]

But who is the message going to be relayed to? Someone who can actualy a difference (who would that be??)? Or just to the same people who haven't listened to it so far?

I am not at liberty to say what is being considered, unfortunately. Not at this time.

 

[Cannonball]

I am not at liberty to say what is being considered, unfortunately. Not at this time.

Intriguing!

 

[AdironRider]

Entitlement is a strong word, but how many times are locals going to decide they know better than ownership? They have already proven to not be a sustainable market several times over.

If Q goes how long until another Ginn, or Schaefers, or Graham is decided to "just not understand how to run Burke". That seems to be a constant mindset in this little area of Vermont.

 

[thetrailboss]

Entitlement is a strong word, but how many times are locals going to decide they know better than ownership? They have already proven to not be a sustainable market several times over.

If Q goes how long until another Ginn, or Schaefers, or Graham is decided to "just not understand how to run Burke". That seems to be a constant mindset in this little area of Vermont.

:roll:

Let's go through this.

Ginn: the market crash meant he lost his line of credit and financing.

Schaefers: had no intent on running it and was using it to launder money.

Graham (I assume you mean 2000-2005 when he was the angel investor): he brought in Ginn and Lubert Adler to run the place.

Explain to me how the locals are to blame for this?

 

[mbedle]

With all due respect, I'm going to say what I said this morning to another poster, and that is that you don't seem really understand Burke and what is going on.

First, I think your "entitlement" comment was not meant to come off as douchey as it sounds. I think your point is that locals cannot take the mountain for granted. Nobody does. In 2000 it was the community who saved the mountain by volunteering, buying passes, etc. The mountain is a part of the community and always has been a part of it. Those 70k annual skiers and riders? Mostly locals.

That leads me to my second point and that is a "general marketing pitch" simply does not work. I don't think there is any dispute that either Ary or "someone" has decided to ignore the local market and go after this pot of gold that lies under the rainbow. Guess what? The ski industry is flat. There are already a lot of resorts competing for a flat number of guests. A lot are WAY ahead of Burke. It is a zero sum game. They want to get to 150k skier days. In such a flat market you can't just burn the 70k that you've got and assume that 150k will show up. And it is easier to get to 150k starting at 70k. I can honestly say that most of the resorts in Vermont of which I am aware (and a lot here in Utah) realize that their market is BOTH local and overnight/distant guests. They offer products for both. With the exception now of maybe Stowe most places rely on locals for some of their business. It is not at all realistic to chase after these mysterious and elusive "other" guests because they don't really exist right now.

And let's be honest--they can't just run the Hotel without the resort and vice versa now. They both rely on each other.

Sorry if I am being frank, but I think that the ideas were a bit off here.

No reason to say you are sorry. I don't get upset by to much these days and I was by no means trying to be a douche. I've said this before with Oldtimer and understand that I am not a local , nor do I ski at Q Burke, nor understand the passion that some of you have for this place. As before, I always try to provide some outside point of view, whether that is off base or not. What I meant by entitlement is that if a private business decides to not cater to a certain group of people like they did in the past, most people move on to a new business. They take their business/money elsewhere. But in this scenario, because of the history of the resort and the efforts locals have put forth to keeping this place operating, people feel that they have a right to the mountain, is amenities and a say in how it is operated. Unfortunately, it is a private business, with the lower part of the mountain located on private land. And what ever past effort where expelled, were for some other owner. That is kind of what I meant by entitlement. Who knows, maybe the owners will cave and remove Ary from his position at the resort. I'm not 100% sure what that will do to improve conditions at the resort, as I would guess that his decisions/actions are not just coming from him or the constraints on his budget are specific to Ary. Just a guess....

As far as your other comment, you may be correct. I didn't mean to say that they are trying to alienate ever local, which I am sure they haven't done. Lets be honest, if you live in or around this town, are you really going to give up on skiing there or drive 2 hours to some other place? I guess that if they can't produce the product that most of you want, that would be yes. If you are a local that doesn't really care what the product is, than no. It also still doesn't change my perception of what they are trying to accomplish. Which is to turn Q Burke into a Jay Peak, that is less dependent on locals for support. Yes, numbers are flat, but that doesn't stop other resort from trying to expand hotel and lodging, to increase skier visit. If you where correct, than why are resorts building new rental units or hotels, or even expanding their resorts? Under your scenario, no resort with a solid business model would do any expansion. That is obviously not the case.

And as far as Stowe, I wouldn't discount the amount of locals that ski there and support the place. Most people I talk to mid-week are locals.

And you are right, the both have to be sold to go together, but stranger things have happened in the past. Look at Ascutney and the Holiday Inn at the base. Mountain closed and Holiday in wasn't. Although they did operate together for some time.

 

[thetrailboss]

Intriguing!

And honestly it may not work. But people don't want to complain and instead want to try to take action.

 

[AdironRider]

By not being a sustainable market, first and foremost. Hell, at least the Magic guys will move hell or high water to keep their place afloat, at a volunteer payscale. At Burke just an employee working overtime is a non-starter.

 

[thetrailboss]

By not being a sustainable market, first and foremost. Hell, at least the Magic guys will move hell or high water to keep their place afloat, at a volunteer payscale. At Burke just an employee working overtime is a non-starter.

I've demonstrated that the unsustainable market argument you made is not the case.

As to the statement made about the employees, that is baseless and pretty demeaning.

 

[AdironRider]

Then what is the case, because I have yet to hear anything that couldn't also be construed as an "I know better than this asshole" mentality from former and current employee complaints. Please illustrate some actual travesties. Since I've piped up I've only heard of an employee being lied to and an F&b employee having to wear a couple different hats. The former has zero backstory, and the latter is par for the course for any food and beverage employee worth their salt.

All I have been saying is that waiting and hoping for some other guy to come in and save the day is a fools errand. This is what the 4th ownership group? That's a lot of hoping and praying. Over what, a guy who is, at the end of the day, just a dick.

But whatever, blow the place up and start over ..... again. I'm sure it will work out better this time around.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat.

Another way of looking at it might be that despite a series of owners who did not understand the culture of the Burke region, the locals remained supportive of their misguided business aspirations.

Jay Peak does rely on it's locals, but even at the bigger resort there are only a handful of long time employees still showing up to work. even the atmosphere has changed at the golden palace of JPR, they can't fill all the jobs sitting vacant and that's without a micromanaging megalomaniac hell bent on making some obscure vision a reality.

It might actually work though, just like Jay, if they can build enough non skiing related services, they don't need the locals. Seems a long way from the salvation this whole program was supposed to be delivering, but who really gives a shit. It is looking like the whole program is going in the shitter, which is where it honestly belonged in the first place. I am happy for Bill and Big Q, they have played the game well. But, the money train isn't running so well. The funding is going backwards, and the only way to really keep this nightmare alive is if they can continue the con.

I don't think they can raise enough money to be able to fully tell the whole community to f-off. Fun watching them try.