Big Burke announcement

[Sheave Head]

I haven't chimed in before but I know a little bit about how burke has been run recently and the only thing I can say is that a local crowd and a destination crowd do not have to be mutually exclusive. From what was said about most other resorts by posters on this thread is that they have both, and there is no reason why burke should be different. This may seem like entitlement to people when locals say they want to be appreciated and offered the same respect as the destination market, but it is not the case. We don't want the hotel not to open, or to be empty when it does. We love this mountain and we want it to succeed, and we know that we are a part of that success and would simply liked to be treated as such.

 

[56fish]

Jay local since '00. Been riding Burke since '88. Worked on the hill '78-79 while at LSC. No I'm not a local. There aren't enough to sustain the mtn. They won't need to stay in the hotel and, won't spend enough on high margin products like f&b / ski rentals / lessons / etc....Sure those that patronize Burke deserve better but, bottom line is bottom line. If not for BMA you'd been looking at Ascutney act II a while ago.

The song remains the same - have to drive by too many resorts to get there. Not as much snow as JP or, the spine of the Greens. Ski 93...how many resorts do you pass coming from coastal metro areas? Same coming down from QC.

It's definitely a rippin' hill. I love riding at Burke. Love the laid back vibe. A vibe that hasn't covered the nut in decades unfortunately.

Q sop's are laughable, really...very sad for those of the surrounding area. Legal tangles will screw this pooch for at least another year. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and, Ary will leave.

The proliferation of posts show the passion of those that care. I get that. But, it's the same post after post. Give AR a break....

 

[from_the_NEK]

Another way of looking at it might be that despite a series of owners who did not understand the culture of the Burke region, the locals remained supportive of their misguided business aspirations.
...

I don't think they can raise enough money to be able to fully tell the whole community to f-off. Fun watching them try.

The ever illusive Kingdom-Tele makes a post! Are you playing in the tournament this weekend?

It has taken a lot to break the locals support of operations at Burke but I think Ary finally succeeded

The big head scratcher is why choose to alienate such a large part of your customer base?

The crazy part is all of this money was presented as a way to bring the NEK community closer together as a whole. It all may have started off with good intentions but all that gravy train $ got too tempting. Man were we (most of us) conned into the fairytale NEK utopia vision! Somehow Ary Sr is still going to be laughing all the way to the bank at the end of this.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The song remains the same - have to drive by too many resorts to get there. Not as much snow as JP or, the spine of the Greens. Ski 93...how many resorts do you pass coming from coastal metro areas? Same coming down from QC.

And 87. And 89. And 91. So throw north Jersey & NYC into that mix too. That's been a big part of my logic as well. Location, location, location.

In addition to the other problems that are always mentioned here (sometimes in dead horse thumping fashion), one that doesnt get enough emphasis IMO is the place is just unfortunately situated in relation to how the modern highway system and major population centers grew since the 1950s when Burke was born. I really believe Burke's best bet for survival is to become a R.P.T., but unlike AdironRider, I dont think that's a "fool's errand", I think it's the most likely outcome.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think some folks make Burke's location out to be a bigger burden than reality.

Sunday River is one of the busiest ski areas in New England. It and Burke have fairly similar commutes from Boston. Burke's is mainly highway, so it's actually easier.

There was a time when SR was smaller than Burke is today. Look how far SR has come in that time.

Burke will always be smaller, but the terrain it has is better, more natural snow as well.

I don't see it going Nelsap. I do think it can sustain healthy Bromley level business. Open the hotel, professional management that sinks another million into snowmaking and I definitely agree with the locals that it could hit 125-150k skier visits.

Just not likely with the current clowns at the wheel.

 

[kingdom-tele]

The ever illusive Kingdom-Tele makes a post! Are you playing in the tournament this weekend?

It has taken a lot to break the locals support of operations at Burke but I think Ary finally succeeded

The big head scratcher is why choose to alienate such a large part of your customer base?

The crazy part is all of this money was presented as a way to bring the NEK community closer together as a whole. It all may have started off with good intentions but all that gravy train $ got too tempting. Man were we (most of us) conned into the fairytale NEK utopia vision! Somehow Ary Sr is still going to be laughing all the way to the bank at the end of this.

I am, see you Friday.

Unfortunately, this whole things was never about the customer base, marketing, and money shuffling mostly. If it had been such an altruistic scheme, someone would have coughed up the 5.5mil to grease the wheels and get the hotel open. Watching Newport sit dormant, investors walking away from a table that is supposedly ripe with potential, and watching the powers to be play useless blame games is sign enough it was always about something other than injecting a community with opportunity.

It is a classic shit show at this point. I fail to see where cutting our noses off make any sense, other than an emotional hand job. The season pass purchases will not keep the place afloat the way it is being run, just like at Jay. The mountain is still a great one, the skiing still great, the people familiar and the relationships deep. The general will disappear eventually, he is already in way over his head. There is no way adding more complexity to the situation makes that better. Pending they actually can add more buildings and services.

I wonder if and when new management roles in, will they downsize their "nut" to fit a sustainable paradigm for our niche in the skiing world, or will it continue to be more of the same?

 

[VTKilarney]

Ary Jr. is reaching out to local Selectboards and to the newspaper. There was an article that ran today. It's good to see that he realizes the need for some community outreach. I can't say that he said anything new (his message still suggests that money is all that matters for relationships to be strong), but the effort itself is something new.

 

[zeke]

My understanding is that Ary, Sr. is NOT very active in Jay. That is Bill's show. Ariel is the money.

exactly-not involved at all on a day to day standpoint. i assumed he got tired of reading about stenger saving the NEK and how wonderful a job he'd done at Jay and decided he'd buy a ski mtn and show that it's not stenger, it's him.

again, an assumption, but seems to make sense

 

[zeke]

And 87. And 89. And 91. So throw north Jersey & NYC into that mix too. That's been a big part of my logic as well. Location, location, location.

In addition to the other problems that are always mentioned here (sometimes in dead horse thumping fashion), one that doesnt get enough emphasis IMO is the place is just unfortunately situated in relation to how the modern highway system and major population centers grew since the 1950s when Burke was born. I really believe Burke's best bet for survival is to become a R.P.T., but unlike AdironRider, I dont think that's a "fool's errand", I think it's the most likely outcome.

isn't it a rich person's toy now? not really working out

and burke is just as close to boston time wise as mt snow or stratton, closer than sugarbush and the only significant mountains you pass on the way are cannon and over-crowded loon. so i've never really understood the too far argument-more of a misconception really.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Ary Jr. is reaching out to local Selectboards and to the newspaper. There was an article that ran today. It's good to see that he realizes the need for some community outreach. I can't say that he said anything new (his message still suggests that money is all that matters for relationships to be strong), but the effort itself is something new.

Link to article (behind the pay wall):
http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_70e0a5fe-d0ad-56f1-b2c0-9113fe0f8a45.html

I'm glad Ary is actually reaching out to the community and he actually took responsibility for staffing a hotel that wasn't completed and stringing everyone along (staff and people who made reservations) week to week. However, things were going downhill long before this terrible snow year. And from what he says in the article, he still doesn't get it that his unwillingness to work with the community instead of looking at every local entity as competition is what has created this deep hole he is finding himself in. The people and businesses that make up the community as a whole are not going to just bow down to him and his whims. It takes everyone working together and compromising to make this work to its full potential.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Here is my 3 minute, completely non-researched, estimated general breakdown of major components of the local economy that are tied to people coming to and spending money in the Burke/Lyndon area as they enjoy the recreational opportunities offered here*.

Burke Mountain and Kingdom Trails are obviously the two largest drivers here. Most of the other components' incomes depend pretty heavily on the two big ones being successful. When one of the two starts leaving everyone else twisting in the wind it hurts EVERYBODY including the big component (see QBurke).
The bottom line here is that I think Ary may be starting to realize that the bottom line can't can't get any lower than where it is at. He can try to spin it into blaming the locals for not backing him in his mismanagement of the ski resort but ultimately it all falls on him.

Ary, if you are reading this...WE ARE NOT THE COMPETITION!
People want to come to this area to enjoy the entire experience, not just your piece of the pie. If all of the pieces work together it makes for a VERY attractive place to vacation in.



*I'm sure there are other components that should go in here and my numbers are very probably not completely accurate. I'm just trying to make a point visually.

 

[Cannonball]

and burke is just as close to boston time wise as mt snow or stratton, closer than sugarbush and the only significant mountains you pass on the way are cannon and over-crowded loon. so i've never really understood the too far argument-more of a misconception really.

I definitely agree that people should take the drive to ski Burke, but you are missing huge portions of their competition with this description.

Yes, Cannon and Loon are the only 2 that you physically/visually drive right past. But you also drive past the exits for Waterville and Bretton Woods. Also Attitash is a shorter drive than Burke. And Wildcat is only ~10min longer drive. Not to mention smaller players like Gunstock and Ragged along the way. Burke has essentially one lift that most people would want to ride, plus some beginner terrain. Burke has their work cut out for them to pull people away from these other 6-8 larger ski areas that are equal or easier to get to.

 

[BenedictGomez]

If it had been such an altruistic scheme, someone would have coughed up the 5.5mil to grease the wheels and get the hotel open. Watching Newport sit dormant, investors walking away from a table that is supposedly ripe with potential, and watching the powers to be play useless blame games is sign enough it was always about something other than injecting a community with opportunity.

It is a classic shit show at this point.

Welcome to "acceptance" - the good news is, it gets better from here.

isn't it a rich person's toy now? not really working out

No. This situation right now is about as far from a "rich person's toy" as could possibly be. This should already have been be pretty clear to many, many months ago.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Have you local folks seen Papa Q in the NEK recently, or is he (presumably) in Florida?

 

[from_the_NEK]

Welcome to "acceptance" - the good news is, it gets better from here.

FWIW, to his credit, Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan. He could see that even it was built out, it would likely be unsustainable.

I'm more in the wheelhouse of your denial diagram

Although, I'm not sure there is going to be mush to accept on the other end other than a great ski hill that has an uncertain future.

 

[VTKilarney]

Have you local folks seen Papa Q in the NEK recently, or is he (presumably) in Florida?

I'm not aware of anyone seeing him in Vermont for quite some time.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I'm not aware of anyone seeing him in Vermont for quite some time.

I think I saw him back in December...

 

[deadheadskier]

FWIW, to his credit, Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan.

Yup, he thought keeping a minimalist approach was the way to go. He's proving to be quite prophetic.

Now the challenge is that the toothpaste is out of the tube to the tune of two HSQs and a Hotel. Can't really turn back now.

 

[BenedictGomez]

to his credit, Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan......I'm more in the wheelhouse of your denial diagram

Got it.

Well, I can tell you exactly when the "denial" stage should have ended even for the most hopeful believers.

The day when it became known that the guy who brands everything with his name, even organic farm stands, opened a nondescript shell company called GSI (i.e. not Quiros Real Estate Ventures) and bought land for $3M, then sold it back to his EB-5 group for $6M about a year later.

The "bringing hope and opportunity" to the NEK story should have ended for all that day.

 

[kingdom-tele]

I was initially opposed to the whole thing. I has since come to terms with the ideas and development. I was excited about the Burke development actually. I absolutely find how they are developing it obnoxious and myopic, but considering they were scrambling under a time line for the EB-5 program and now likely having misused money their rush to make it mini Jay makes sense.

Thi whole thing is trying to force evolution without considering the components that made up the system. Worse, has been the disregard for some of the system's fundamental parts. Destined to fail. Not a bad thing in the long run.