Big Burke announcement

[steamboat1]

To suggest that only people with limited resources are hardcore (purist) skiers/riders is ludicrous. Places like Stowe & Sugarbush attract hardcore skiers because of the terrain they offer both in bounds & out of bounds. Not having this type of terrain will never attract hardcore skiers/riders no matter what price they charge. There is no correlation between being a hardcore skier/rider & ability to pay is all I'm saying..

 

[thetrailboss]

To suggest that only people with limited resources are hardcore (purist) skiers/riders is ludicrous. Places like Stowe & Sugarbush attract hardcore skiers because of the terrain they offer both in bounds & out of bounds. Not having this type of terrain will never attract hardcore skiers no matter what price they charge. There is no correlation between being a hardcore skier/rider & ability to pay is all I'm saying..

No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that Stowe and Sugarbush, now to some extent, are catering to different demographics that have different preferences. That is all.

 

[kingdom-tele]

I hear you on the infastructure comment, thats my cause for concern with this whole development. 1250 beds is going to cost a couple mill a year just to keep the buildings in decent shape, plus labor etc.

But you lose arguments with hyperbole of 20 minute liftlines. 150K skier visits is not going automatically result in Killington level crowding. Thats never going to happen in the NEK.

JHole does at least double the target of Burke, and there are only two ways up realistically from the base. We dont see lines that long pretty much ever, outside of an epic (for our out here were talking two feet plus overnight) pow day during Christmas week.

never? I thought this was the whole point of this progress.

the redeeming value of the burke experience is largely based on the fact it is a ski "area" as TB points out. Obviously ski areas can't survive, a resort atmosphere, more complexity is needed to attract whatever demographic business men need.

while a 20 min lift line was hyperbole, a 90sec run down dippers is not, especially with only a handful of people on any given trail, add 100's of people and the experience changes, true?

how many people are gonna be bitchin about crowds, already hear at Jay, and Jay had an established following to begin with. NEK can comment, how long did the pow last on the 1 bonifide pow day last year, imagine a line up 4x longer, every day when the mystic purist with disposable income shows up

At least someone is satisfied, fortunately they don't ski

 

[from_the_NEK]

how many people are gonna be bitchin about crowds, already hear at Jay, and Jay had an established following to begin with. NEK can comment, how long did the pow last on the 1 bonifide pow day last year, imagine a line up 4x longer, every day when the mystic purist with disposable income shows up

Granted that was the one decent powder day of the year. There was a lot of pent up demand that day. There were a lot more skinner that morning than I had ever seen as well.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Turning East Bowl into a giant glade and moving the Willoughby Quad over there should spread out the crowds a bit.

I wonder how long it will be before there is talk of expanding into the West Bowl? My odds:
within 5 years = 10-1
within 10 years = 3-1

All depends on if they come close to that 150K number.

 

[deadheadskier]

How much terrain to the own or are they permitted for in the West Bowl?

What have they discussed in the past in terms of lifts, trails, acreage etc.

 

[from_the_NEK]

That is the sticky point. It is all state forest land. Back in the day, Northern Star had eyes on it and even had a sketch up of trails in the mid-lodge for a while. That layout looked pretty bad and was very generalized. I don't think there were ever any permits issued for it. Trails on this part of the mountain(properly built of course) could be very Castlerock-esque.

The other complicating factors on that part of the mtn are the hiking trails.

 

[Masskier]

Interesting comments. Not sure where some of the numbers are coming from. At last weeks meeting Bill was very clear that he has no interest in turning burke into an over crowded resort with 20 minute lift lines. He indicated that he has 150 days to increase the skier visits, 40 are weekends and holidays, he is most interested in building (the other 110 days) the midweek non holiday business. Right now Burke has very little midweek business. With the lodging they will be able to offer value on the 5 day visitors. He even indicated that he is going to offer long stay visitors at Jay interchangeable lift tickets at Burke.

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: West Bowl. FTNEK out up the original master plan from Kitchell and then Quinn. I think that they might have been approved, but not funded. Since then they cut out the West Peak and Cutter Portions and focused on East Bowl. Ginn brought Cutter back. Honestly I'm curious as to why they "forgot" or dropped West Peak since that is legit expert terrain that would give Burke another angle.

 

[thetrailboss]

And the map is from Bear Kingdom Limited. Notice that the Cutter portion is gone. I'll dig up the original one. Impressive to say the least.

 

[riverc0il]

150K skiers isn't a big change?

Having to inflate costs to support running 100+ million in infrastructure isn't a big change?

how many "purists" are looking forward to standing in line for 20 minutes to take a 90sec run down a skied out dippers?

Those purists will all be skiing on to the new East Bowl lift (when it goes in) and skiing the hopefully not destroyed and maybe even expanded glades. :beer:

Burke won't ever see 20 minute lift lines. They could never attract that many guests no matter the investment. They won't be able to offer their five minute guarantee any more but 20 minutes ain't going to ever happen at Burke.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Those purists will all be skiing on to the new East Bowl lift (when it goes in) and skiing the hopefully not destroyed and maybe even expanded glades. :beer:

Burke won't ever see 20 minute lift lines. They could never attract that many guests no matter the investment. They won't be able to offer their five minute guarantee any more but 20 minutes ain't going to ever happen at Burke.

they could never attract that many? isn't this the point.

Wow, I really hope that is true. A business plan to dump 100+ million into a place that really doesn't want skiers, or I suppose only a certain amount more

Maybe I am underestimating what "rustic" is, those lodges are going to have to be pretty special.

 

[riverc0il]

How many skier visits does Burke get now? The goal is what, 150k/year? If they double the number of skiers, that would double the lines. Line times have never even come close to 10 minutes at Burke. They are building a few hotels, they are not recreating all of Jay's slope side and building a dozen hotels up the access road in addition to all the private second homes around the 242 area. Yes they are going for growth but they aren't queuing up an overload... I think they are smart enough businessmen to understand "if you build it, they will come" is limited to the scope of a self selecting group of guests and competition between other mountains for guests. They aren't aiming for a quarter million guests, thank goodness.

 

[thetrailboss]

Burke gets about 75k or so from what I have heard. So yes, 2x is the goal.

 

[kingdom-tele]

the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.

west bowl? never heard of it.

 

[riverc0il]

the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.

west bowl? never heard of it.

Just remember it isn't just that double the skier visits that is going to cover the cost of the new lodges because right now no money is made via those lodges because they don't exist. The lodges will pay for themselves and the market includes any current Burke skiers. That would get slopeside lodging if it existed. Also keep in mind that doubling the skier visits doesn't mean doubling the number of people that ski Burke. Part of it is just getting existing Burke skiers to the mountain more often... that new snowmaking would get me there more often and if Burke consistently operated Thanksgiving-April with a quality product very early and late, I wouldn't be passing on a Jay-Burke pass. Now I gotta think about that one next season...

Right now Burke isn't making a lodging dime on them for any of their current 75k/year business. I don't know what Burke gets for condo rentals or sales but essentially Burke has no bed base and is missing out on a big chuck of change on lodging. The lack of on mountain lodging is probably keeping a good portion of that double number away from the mountain. That would leave the extra ticket revenue to cover the extra snow.

But let's play out your perspective: that it isn't sustainable. If that is the case, then just like Ginn, the mountain see's improvements (or you might see them as "improvements" in quotes) and then gets sold at fire sale prices to the next dupe. Cool, as long as the lifts keep turning and the season gets longer on both ends, what does it matter?

I ain't heard of west bowl either but don't need to post a picture to prove my lack of knowledge. :lol:

 

[troy]

the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.

west bowl? never heard of it.

cool pic!

that's the thing 'bout burke, there's a whole new friggin' mountain on the west peak w/ no trails... that's huge but might not be steep enough for them dead bangers...

 

[from_the_NEK]

It's Friday and I haven't played in Google Earth for a while. Jus ttoying with how the new ownership will lay ot the new lodge/hotels.

Mid-Burke area.

PhotoChop:

When standing in the liftline, Willoughby Gap is visible through the space between the two hotels.

The upper hotel/lodge I made a bit smaller than my old renderings (since there are now 3 buildings instead of one large one). I still feel the day lodge would be most appropriate in this location for ease of access for the day skiers and/or racing groups.

The buildings are all roughly 170x70 feet. The 70' width seems to be roughly somewhat of a standard when measuring other similar buildings that have been built recently (both at Jay and at Sugarbush).

 

[from_the_NEK]

One More. This time the hotel near the base lodge. There isn't a lot of room to work with around the condos. This location provides easy ski-in/out and easy access to activites at the base lodge. And it is out of the way of the day skier traffic in the main parking lot.

 

[Smellytele]

It's Friday and I haven't played in Google Earth for a while. Jus ttoying with how the new ownership will lay ot the new lodge/hotels.

Mid-Burke area.

PhotoChop:

When standing in the liftline, Willoughby Gap is visible through the space between the two hotels.

The upper hotel/lodge I made a bit smaller than my old renderings (since there are now 3 buildings instead of one large one). I still feel the day lodge would be most appropriate in this location for ease of access for the day skiers and/or racing groups.

The buildings are all roughly 170x70 feet. The 70' width seems to be roughly somewhat of a standard when measuring other similar buildings that have been built recently (both at Jay and at Sugarbush).

Where you put the 2 lower buildings they had originally slotted for the new barn like houses they were selling last year. Not sure if they sold the lots in that area or not. They had actually built some decks so people could see what the view from their deck would be.