Big Burke announcement

[AdironRider]

Sorry TB, but all that changing of hands most definitely counts, especially Ginn. Most deals are with friends of some sort when we are talking executives here.

Kingdom, Ive been asking the same question throughout the thread, noone seems to know. That infastructure can deteriorate rapidly though, which pretty much leaves you looking like Berlin NH.

Riv, your touching on politics a bit, and if anything, our country is where it is today because for the most part, the govt stayed out of things.

This still reeks of ASC, which everyone thought was solid at one point as well.

 

[thetrailboss]

Sorry TB, but all that changing of hands most definitely counts, especially Ginn. Most deals are with friends of some sort when we are talking executives here.

My point is that there was nobody else, but BMA, who wanted (or needed) Burke to continue to operate. I don't think we are going to see them sell the place in 2012 and recoup their money (probably with some losses honestly) and then turn around and spend more money to buy it back later. Maybe they are going to do that, but honestly they could have done EB-5 themselves (and FWIW they were trying) and/or retained ownership.

 

[thetrailboss]

so does anyone know what the recourse is in 3-5 years when/if 10,000 jobs can't/aren't filled. A foreign investor loses a chunk of change, thats it? The infrastructure they are scrambling to erect isn't going anywhere. Seems pretty win/win. Curious what the down side is not attaining their job criteria.

Presumably the project loses its qualification for EB-5 and the investors can't get their green cards. As to if they get their investment back, that is purely dependent on the project succeeding and, like any other investment, there is a risk of losing that investment.

Ginn doesn't count? Didn't they redo the base lodge, Tamarack, yurt, etc?

Read my post again. AdironRider thinks that there are folks who would be interested in buying Burke and that Stenger et al are going to flip it. My point was that this is not the case because from 2000-2012 Burke was owned by BMA related folks who owned it primarily at first to keep BMA in business, and then later to try and develop it. Ginn was brought in by those folks to develop the place and it didn't work. Now obviously we don't know what the future will bring, but if history says anything it is that there are no real other interested players who want Burke (except Stenger and company who bought it as an investment for their EB-5 funds). There is no line of interested buyers to indicate that Stenger et al are simply going to flip it.

 

[kingdom-tele]

pretty easy to be optimistic with other peoples money I suppose then TB.

Infrastructure will be put in. How they pay for running this bigger and better mess is my concern.

Maybe they can adjust some loopholes and people can get green cards for buying season passes and apres ski beers.

 

[thetrailboss]

pretty easy to be optimistic with other peoples money I suppose then TB.

Infrastructure will be put in. How they pay for running this bigger and better mess is my concern.

Maybe they can adjust some loopholes and people can get green cards for buying season passes and apres ski beers.

Having access to capital is a good thing for the area and yes, investing in it is a risk. There is inherent risk with every investment, including this one.

 

[kingdom-tele]

I just hope we're not having the conversation in 5 years when QBurke isn't meeting the bottom line and since no one is interested in ski "areas" anymore they close it down vs manage their risk. but that would never happen. unprecedented even.

 

[BenedictGomez]

It was not you that got it wrong. I was responding to Benedict's comments.

When I said,

"free" government money (which isnt free)

it was tongue in cheek, hence the quotes around free (there is no such thing as free money), but it is a government pass-through. In other words, this is a market disturbance that would not happen without direct government intervention. And I fully admit that maybe I will be 100% wrong, but I've been a (dorky) student of markets for a while now, it's a subject that interests me, and I think that in a vast majority of cases even with good intentions, the results of large synthetic market interventions tend to range from poor to very poor.

EB5 money isn't about perfect competition among businesses in a single market... it is about creating significant economic development in areas that could use more/better jobs. That in turn could actually help improve prospects for other resorts if more residents have more disposable income that gets recycled into the local economy.

I know, and here's where I'll sound like the bad guy, but my guess is it's oversold. These things nearly always are. As someone who has had to count jobs "created or saved" from the recent Economic Stimulus money, you wouldnt even BELIEVE the intentional-fraud that went on to over-count and boost the jobs numbers reported. The other thing that tends to get oversold with these things is that the "jobs created" tend to be low-paying jobs: waitresses, maids, cooks etc... Dont get me wrong, any job is a good job in this economy, I'm just saying I wouldnt believe the milk and honey accounting that tends to be initially reported with these things.

You really need to look at this as investments that carry risk. If Jay Peak fails, then the EB5 folks don't get their Visas or their money. They buy into the program because they have evaluated Jay's business plan and think it is a sound investment.

A very good point. Alternatively, they could be so rich that they just dont care? Personally, if I weren't very rich and just didnt care, I wouldn't invest in Jay Peak for the simple reason that it's private and so I presume there's very limited transparency, but to each their own. I dont know if it was mentioned on this board or not, but earlier this year a JP EB-5 Visa broker pulled out because they lost confidence in JP's accounting and/or ability to ever pay back investors (link below). Don't know what ever happened with this (havent seen any updates), but if this Rapid Visa accusation is false? Jay Peak should sue them given the severity of the accusation.

http://eb5info.web11.hubspot.com/bid/126868/EB-5-Visa-Agent-Broker-Rapid-Visas-denounces-Jay-Peak

 

[riverc0il]

BenedictGomez, why would it matter if they are so rich they just don't care? In that case, they are waving money at Jay Peak and that money is creating jobs, regardless of how you count them or what level jobs they are. While I agree with you that it is easy to over sell the creation of jobs, especially good paying ones, I think we can both agree that considering the expansion that Jay Peak has done, they have probably created a considerable amount of mid-level management positions and at least a few higher level manager positions. They essentially opened three brand new facilities that could be independent businesses of their own and they need to be staffed 24/7 year round with big bumps on the weekend. And again, you can't compare this to stimulus money, it is investment money. Those that would eschew government stimulus for economic development should be in love with this type of investment plan for said development. There really is no downside and there is a major economic impact, whether or not it is as large as claimed can be debated, but you can't argue that it is insignificant.

 

[kingdom-tele]

VT rate now $52.

Guess JPR found their way to meet the bottom line.

 

[from_the_NEK]

However, FWIW, the Vermonter rate is now good on Saturdays.
Unfortunately, I don't see any mention of Ski+Ride NEK style (the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket). All half day tickets currently appear to be $52 (which is the same as the full day VT'r ticket).

Kids under 5 ski free

At this point I may have to plead my case for buying a season pass. It would only take 15 days of sking to pay for itself. Or only 13 days if I pay the full $70 to ski 5 days during holiday periods.

 

[kingdom-tele]

makes sense I suppose NEK, Burke is true VT skiing, being just north of ordinary, and "local" mountain it should cost more.
Nice to see them really going out of their way to make skiing accessible for local families on a budget who don't need the fanfare.

We will be going to Owl's Head this year.

 

[nekgirl]

However, FWIW, the Vermonter rate is now good on Saturdays.
Unfortunately, I don't see any mention of Ski+Ride NEK style (the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket). All half day tickets currently appear to be $52 (which is the same as the full day VT'r ticket).

Kids under 5 ski free

At this point I may have to plead my case for buying a season pass. It would only take 15 days of sking to pay for itself. Or only 13 days if I pay the full $70 to ski 5 days during holiday periods.

Hi There from_the_NEK,
Not to worry, we still plan on the SKi & Ride NEK Style this winter-13 seasons strong! Our webmaster is busy making the winter change-overs, so it will be posted soon. In the meantime, think cold, snowy thoughts!

See you soon,
Hannah Collins
Burke Mountain

 

[kingdom-tele]

that is great news

thanks for the info nekgirl

 

[from_the_NEK]

Yes, that is good news. Thanks Hanna!

 

[thetrailboss]

it was tongue in cheek, hence the quotes around free (there is no such thing as free money), but it is a government pass-through. In other words, this is a market disturbance that would not happen without direct government intervention. And I fully admit that maybe I will be 100% wrong, but I've been a (dorky) student of markets for a while now, it's a subject that interests me, and I think that in a vast majority of cases even with good intentions, the results of large synthetic market interventions tend to range from poor to very poor.

I hate to say it, but "direct government intervention" in the markets is a fact of life and I think your definition is pretty broad. Your definition is pretty broad. If it wasn't for some kind of "government intervention," Killington, Jay, Burke, and Stowe would not exist at all because the Vermont state government funded construction of the base roads and even some of the base lodges. With Stowe and Burke, the CCC funded by the feds in the 1930's cut the trails. And without government intevention more recently, Stowe would be gone (its owner, AIG, was bailed out).

I get what you are saying, but there has been a lot of "government involvement" with many other resorts as well...and I won't even get into the "evil triangle of ski areas" argument. :lol:

 

[from_the_NEK]

And without government intevention more recently, Stowe would be gone (its owner, AIG, was bailed out).

Saying Stowe would be gone would be a bit of a stretch. Someone would have bought it (under foreclosure?) had AIG not been bailed out.
However, AIG was able to spin off a new company that technically now owns the mtn, protecting it from the lenders and enabling it to remain open under the greater AIG umbrella.

 

[thetrailboss]

Saying Stowe would be gone would be a bit of a stretch. Someone would have bought it (under foreclosure?) had AIG not been bailed out.
However, AIG was able to spin off a new company that technically now owns the mtn, protecting it from the lenders and enabling it to remain open under the greater AIG umbrella.

Maybe yes, maybe no. My point is that even small the government action was involved with Stowe.

 

[DJAK]

Not a big announcement, but relevant to the thread perhaps:

http://www.skitheeast.net/posts/id/1765057752/on-patrol-30-years-at-burke

There may be more (and bigger) news to come, but to start getting us all reacquainted, I caught up with their longtime Patrol Director John Worth. Regardless of investments and press releases, what makes the skiing matter is the heart and soul of the local communities, the people who live and breathe the mountain operation day to day and the fun we all get to share when we're there. That's why we work to bring you the local stories and people you don't get otherwise....

 

[thetrailboss]

Not a big announcement, but relevant to the thread perhaps:

http://www.skitheeast.net/posts/id/1765057752/on-patrol-30-years-at-burke

John is a big reason why the Kingdom Trails even exist.

 

[SIKSKIER]

John is a big reason why the Kingdom Trails even exist.

Big being the key word.John stayed at my old skihouse in Franconia one weekend.He is a big man.