Burke Announces Multi million dollar capital improvement plan for this year

[riverc0il]

If the new lift only services lower Burke, won't that just concentrate that type of skier at the bottom? Sounds like a good thing for those that like the top.

ctenidae, have you ever been to burke? the lower slopes are extremely flat, probably some of the flatest learning terrain in new england and good for newbies or condo holders only. skiers that prefer those slopes would likely never ride the summit quad as there are no green circles off the summit and only one trail (toll road or deer run if you would) that is doable for a beginner. besides, it's not like any one riding the summit quad is fighting off the crowds or competing for freshies :lol:

yet...

 

[riverc0il]

My local source up at home had told me about this plan back in April or so...rumors were that the lift was going to end higher up on the mtn, as stated here. So that means either in between Willoughby and the terrain park or to the skier's left of Lower Willoughby.

interesting about the lift going higher up the mountain. though for beginners, this could create issues with the run being too long or too steep depending on where the chair lets off. ideally the new trails will service beginners and get them to the lower mountain without too many trail cross overs.

TB, you have an interesting scenerio regarding investment of the resort company and income on realty while burke continues to run operations. however, if this was the case, i think burke would have made it painfully obvious as that scenerio would be the best for everyone interested in burke.

if the new HSQ is due to the new resort company, is it weird that the HSQ is going (or at least having a formal announcement) before ownership has officially been transferred? i doubt this would be happening without financing from the new resort company from what i had heard through the grape vine in years past regarding the possibility of upgrading the summit quad.

 

[riverc0il]

If the first order of business is to demolish Mid-Burke to build a new lodge or a hotel, than the Lower HSQ makes sense--it will make having to go all the way down to the main lodge for lunch a little less annoying while they do construction at Mid Burke.

interesting point stomachdoc... i hadn't even considered the possibility that mid-burke lodge would be terminated as both an entrance to the ski area or a mid-mountain lodge for food and warmth. from a resort perspective, making mid-burke area condos is a stroke of genius that would require speedy access from lower burke base lodge. interesting scenerio and one that i am not entirely opposed to.

 

[Masskier]

"The new lift will be a little shorter, according to Dick Andross, president of ski area operations, and will be a four-minute ride to the top. The detachable quad travels 1,000 feet per minute, Andross said"

From The Caledonian-Record

 

[stomachdoc]

As has been mentioned before by AZers, increasing lift capacity to the top of the mountain would require a significant redesign of the trails at the top; you need a little more width at the top as a larger number of skiers/minute work their way from the unload area to their trails of choice. There are some narrow passages with trees that will have to be widened.

Starting at the bottom seems like a smart way to do it; the condo owners will be happy, the beginner/intermediate skiers can get more runs in, more skiers will be attracted when they hear of the improvements and, for now, the "old style" skiing off of the top will remain as is.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

The lift would, in effect, create a layout like Okemo or Someday Bigger, with a high-speed feeder/beginer lift at the base. Not my favorite layout, but it works in some places.

 

[awf170]

As has been mentioned before by AZers, increasing lift capacity to the top of the mountain would require a significant redesign of the trails at the top; you need a little more width at the top as a larger number of skiers/minute work their way from the unload area to their trails of choice. There are some narrow passages with trees that will have to be widened.

Starting at the bottom seems like a smart way to do it; the condo owners will be happy, the beginner/intermediate skiers can get more runs in, more skiers will be attracted when they hear of the improvements and, for now, the "old style" skiing off of the top will remain as is.

the suprising thing about adding a HSQ to the top is that it wouldnt add much capacity, a HSQ doesnt have anymore capacity then a regular one it justs makes people able to do more runs making it slightly more crowded.... maybe widen one trail

 

[riverc0il]

i believe a HSQ would actually increase capacity in this case due to the current quad being so slow. a fast enough fixed grip will indeed equal a HSQ, but an old low speed fixed grip may well be slower than a HSQ would be, perhaps by a significant amount. hard to call without knowing the capacity per hour of the current fixed grip. one thing is for sure though, with skiers spending more time on the snow than in the lift, a HSQ will increase something rarely seen at burke: lines.

i don't agree with the idea that a HSQ would require more trails or widening trails. burke has a wide variety of trails off the top including willoughby, bear, fox's, the narrow trail i forget the name of, toll road, east bowl, the dippers, wilderness, and one other near toll road. of those trails, willoughby and dippers are really wide. compare that setup to a place like wildcat that dumps all it's skiers at the summit from which skiers normally only have 4 trails to pick from unless it's the rare occasion that the lift lines are open from the top (i have seen this once in a dozen years). granted, upper wildcat trails suffer from scraped and skied off conditions by noon time usually, but wildcat has a lot more traffic and far fewer options than burke. actually, when you really take a close look at the options from the top of burke, i believe burke has one of the highest number of trail options from it's summit out of nearly any new england ski area.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Well, Burke does have it for variety and trail count off the top. That being said, it's skiable acres that need to be balanced against uphill capacity.

YOu probably could increase the capacity and, given Burke's current daily census, not adversely stress the "downhill capacity". High speed lifts are not installed fun, they are installed for profit. They are a significant additional expense that needs increased visits to get ROI. In short, you need butts in those seats, which leads to more traffic on the slopes.

I ski weekdays only, so it doesn't really effect me. (OK, I'll admitt it, a quick ride isn't a bad thing.) I don't care for wider, cookie cutter slopes, however, so I shudder when I think of what "improvements" might do to a gem like Burke. (I know, I know, "Keep it off NELSAP").

 

[thetrailboss]

Yes, in a good winter with snowfall, an expert has many, many routes down from Burke. What is great is how you can ski many different trail types (fast cruiser to narrow old school trail before diving into the woods) on one run. HSQ's are expensive to install but last longer than fixed grips and are less to maintain. I imagine they are probably more efficient energy-wise. The current quad is a true workhorse--as Bob R and riverc0il recall on our visit, that lift climbs "one chair over the other" for about 2/3 of the lift...remember, she serves about 1600 vert--that's quite a ride.

The new HSQ is 400 hp and I'd imagine the one to replace the Willoughby Quad would probably have to be similar to SB's GMX (700 hp) or even more. That = lots of $$$.

Wonder what will become of the double? And please leave the Poma--piece of ski history and Burke's OLDEST lift (first one) that is still running (albeit modified twice).

 

[awf170]

Yes, in a good winter with snowfall, an expert has many, many routes down from Burke. What is great is how you can ski many different trail types (fast cruiser to narrow old school trail before diving into the woods) on one run. HSQ's are expensive to install but last longer than fixed grips and are less to maintain. I imagine they are probably more efficient energy-wise. The current quad is a true workhorse--as Bob R and riverc0il recall on our visit, that lift climbs "one chair over the other" for about 2/3 of the lift...remember, she serves about 1600 vert--that's quite a ride.

The new HSQ is 400 hp and I'd imagine the one to replace the Willoughby Quad would probably have to be similar to SB's GMX (700 hp) or even more. That = lots of $$$.

Wonder what will become of the double? And please leave the Poma--piece of ski history and Burke's OLDEST lift (first one) that is still running (albeit modified twice).

I think it is wierd how a chair bringing all those people up a mountain would only be 400 hp, for some reason i always though hsq's were atleast a 1000hp

 

[thetrailboss]

I think it is wierd how a chair bringing all those people up a mountain would only be 400 hp, for some reason i always though hsq's were atleast a 1000hp

I also thought that 400 hp was small as well, but according to Poma's website Ragged Mountain's 6 pack only uses a 600 hp 'phat boy' motor. This probably explains why that lift has such a hard time restarting after a stop...too much weight.

Today is D-Day when we will find out IF Burke has been sold...my thoughts are that either a) they have been, or b) these new improvements are the result of a VEDA grant and Ginn has decided to buy the land and property around the resort...

Any news?

Want to head up and see construction. Kind of sad to see the old double come down. My first chairlift. Slow, but cool ride (albeit flat). Those towers are HUGE as well . I still can't figure out where this new lift is going to terminate. :blink: To skier's left of Willoughby? In the area between the Gap and Willougby? Isn't this going to destroy Lower Willoughby, which is a great high speed cruiser?

 

[thetrailboss]

OK, to add some context to this conversation, here is an aerial shot from Terraserver:



The large meadow on the left just below the upper mountain trails is rumored to be the future site of more condos.

You can see the lower mountain trail pod, which begins on the lower right hand corner and extends to Lower Willoughby. If you look closely, you can see the top station of the double, at the intersection/landing just below Lower Willoughby. I guess if the new lift goes straight up it would end in the treed-in area found above the current terminal and almost dead center of the photo. I wonder if they're going to end over to the right in the trees? How would one get to the Willoughby Quad on this "new trail?" By going down to Lower Willoughby? Cutting left to Lower Fox's?

Also note how narrow the trails are on the top and how it is difficult to find them!

 

[awf170]

looks like there are some really spread out trees off the top of east bowl but i dont see anything on the trail map there...

 

[thetrailboss]

looks like there are some really spread out trees off the top of east bowl but i dont see anything on the trail map there...

Of course there is nothing there :wink:

 

[thetrailboss]

The plot thickens. Taken from this article in the Caledonian Record about Wind farms...kind of a tangent, but interesting:

The letter was sent two days before Burke 2000, owner of the ski area, announced a multimillion dollar capital plan that includes a new chair lift, snow-making expansion and trail improvements. This is an ambitious venture for a company that has been losing money on the ski operation since it was purchased at auction five years ago. Losses of between $100,000 and $300,000 a year led the company to search for investors in order to make the area a four-season resort. Negotiations have been ongoing for three years.

Enter Donald Graham, a Pennsylvania businessman who has had close ties to the academy and the ski area for more than 30 years, and Ginn Clubs and Resorts, a development company based in Celebration, Fla. Graham went to Montpelier early in this legislative session to speak with local legislators about the mountain's development plans, and he expressed concerns about how wind turbines nearby might quash any deal, according to state Sen. Jane Kitchel of Caledonia County.

A new limited partnership called Ginn-La Burski LTD, LLLP was registered with the Vermont secretary of state's office on May 23. Another company called Ginn-Burski GP, LLC was registered with the same office a week earlier. The principal address of both companies is Celebration, Fla.

A representative of the Ginn company called the Burke town office June 8 inquiring about setting up a satellite office in Burke. Sources who have experience with Ginn Clubs and Resorts say the company remains silent about its plans until a deal is struck.

"I have nothing to say at this time," Ryan Julison, vice president of communications for the Ginn company, said Tuesday. "We're looking at properties all over the country. It's possible a deal could be made in Burke. I'll call if anything happens."

The developers are in the process of buying back about 1,000 acres that were sold to private owners during the 2000 auction of the ski area. Sources say they are close to closing a deal. In the meantime, community members and town officials have been kept in the dark.

Al Duey, chairman of the Burke Planning Commission, said Wednesday no one has approached the board about the mountain's plans. "Nothing at all - zero," he said.

Burke Selectman Sam Sanderson said last week that the Board of Selectmen has not been notified of any plans either.

"It would be nice to know what's going on," Sanderson said. "They'll probably wait and dump it on us all at the same time."

Ginn Clubs and Resorts is a privately-held resort development and management company that specializes in exclusive leisure lifestyle and vacation destination communities across the United States, according to the company's Web site.

 

[awf170]

you know those new glades at the far right side(lift riders right) of the mountain, i was just looking at a topo and they look insanely steep, is this true, or am i looked in the wrong spot :-?

 

[thetrailboss]

you know those new glades at the far right side(lift riders right) of the mountain, i was just looking at a topo and they look insanely steep, is this true, or am i looked in the wrong spot :-?

Yes, the pitch on the 'west side' is steep. You're looking at the Jungle and Birches off of Willoughby, right? Some nice pitch over there and nice snow. Good solid long glades that dump onto the fire road. Both take some snow to cover up the 'nasty' stuff underneath, but the Birches is just that...birches and nice space.

 

[awf170]

just looked at jay peaks website and it says you ski burke free with there a jay season pass...
so is it only jay to peak and no burke to jay?

 

[thetrailboss]

just looked at jay peaks website and it says you ski burke free with there a jay season pass...
so is it only jay to peak and no burke to jay?

According to Jay's AZ Challenge, the reciprocity IS ONLY GOOD midweek non-holiday...sorry I didn't hyperlink it.