the original trailboss
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Also fessing up here - the reason I started the thread was to (hopefully) get some additional input as I was selected as part of that group as well.
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Burke's envisioning session/roundtable discussion
- Thread starter the original trailboss
- Start date
kingdom-tele
New member
I wonder if mid burke would be better suited for a day lodge in the mold of the golf club at J. Could capture the summer crowd, retain some of the bear den's mojo and leave an open, inviting, yet simplistic lodge to use in the winter. Save the hotel and bed base for the lower lot, thats where the facilities are going in. If the bed base is so critical at mid burke why not go with the mini condo development they have sprouted at J, would seem even more user friendly for the mt bike vacationer than trudging through the hotel.
Even if they needed a fifty bed complex at mid burke, maybe 2 25 room wings in a ranch style that reach down the hill, ski in/out, ride in/out, could have a sweet courtyard linking the main building with the buildings to the left and right, scatter 20 more mini condos along the wood line, voile. Can get people to pay to stay and not have the natural vista dominated by a 5/6 story structure, keep the social aspect alive vs cubicliizing the experience.
The big buildings work at J well, they would work well at the base lodge at burke, mid burke? I don't think it fits there so well.
been skiing at owls head more this year. It has old school efficiency, huge open floor plan for a changing area, cafeteria, attached deck with seating, large open bar. The lack of walls was shocking compared to the maze J has created. Simple yet efficient, for 6 or 2 thousand people. Be nice to see something like that be transferred to the next generation of ski resort design
Even if they needed a fifty bed complex at mid burke, maybe 2 25 room wings in a ranch style that reach down the hill, ski in/out, ride in/out, could have a sweet courtyard linking the main building with the buildings to the left and right, scatter 20 more mini condos along the wood line, voile. Can get people to pay to stay and not have the natural vista dominated by a 5/6 story structure, keep the social aspect alive vs cubicliizing the experience.
The big buildings work at J well, they would work well at the base lodge at burke, mid burke? I don't think it fits there so well.
been skiing at owls head more this year. It has old school efficiency, huge open floor plan for a changing area, cafeteria, attached deck with seating, large open bar. The lack of walls was shocking compared to the maze J has created. Simple yet efficient, for 6 or 2 thousand people. Be nice to see something like that be transferred to the next generation of ski resort design
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from_the_NEK
Active member
I kind of figured as much when I saw the title of the thread
It will be interesting to see how the session works.
Do they present their current plans and have us critique?
Open moderated discussion (so a few people don't dominate conversation)?
Written questionaire?
Focus on just building projects, or the entire mountain?
Should I bring a laptop loaded up with all of my Google Earth works to stimulate additional discussion
?kingdom-tele
New member
I kind of figured as much when I saw the title of the thread
It will be interesting to see how the session works.
Do they present their current plans and have us critique?
Open moderated discussion (so a few people don't dominate conversation)?
Written questionaire?
Focus on just building projects, or the entire mountain?
Should I bring a laptop loaded up with all of my Google Earth works to stimulate additional discussion
Why not NEK.
I kind of wonder what the point is too, if they are set on this phase of the project it will be interesting to see where they are looking for input. Its a small panel so it shouldn't get to rowdy I would think.
good luck fellas
AZ will be well represented.
OK, I will be giving more specific comments to a certain member of the committee, but here are some of my thoughts.
Certain things have been engrained in me from birth. For me, baseball has always been Red Sox, and skiing has been Burke Mountain because I grew up in Lyndon. It was always "the mountain". I learned to ski at the "J-Bar" in 1990 thanks to the Learn to Ski Program that the mountain. At that time the mountain needed business as it was run by a creditor bank. At the time, of course, I did not know or understand this. All I knew was it was "the mountain" and where kids went to ski.
Having ridden in the car through East Burke multiple times I had not seen the ski area at all or really even know where it was. The trails are not visible from Lyndonville (unless you look closely) and the base area is, intentionally, buffered from the town. I learned later that the mountain's longest owner and principal designer, a local guy known more for his dairy farm and inheritance from a famous crayon company, always wanted the ski area to be in the woods and that the access road not be cluttered with junk. That remains today. He also had plans to try to convince East Burke to relocate to the Mid-Burke area so that there would be a true mountain village. He wanted the community up at the mountain and he shared it with everyone. Well, that guy plowed his inheritance into the mountain and spent a lot to try to make it feel undeveloped and unique. He hired a big-time manager who came up with big plans--some that locals disputed--and the lower mountain came to be. After years of dreams, and after the start of the work on the "big plans," he ran out of money in the mid-1980's.
I digress. As a kid I always saw locals there. We all skied there. The double was slow, the other major lift was "the quad," and if you were real good you rode the Poma. Every year I would eagerly climb the stairs to Sherburne Lodge wondering if there would be a new trail or a new lift on that big Burke map. Alas, for many years that big Burke map displayed ambitions that still are unrealized. And the trail maps never changed.
We got excited around 1991 that we might see something improve. But the guy, with plans for a Bavarian Village, only had intents to launder money. He did extend the Poma and Warren's Way. We cringed when the resort struggled in 1994 and 1995. Prayed when it went on the market in 1995 again.
We all got excited again in 1995 when several new owners came in. They were international and had a manager who was proud to have built the best and cheapest tennis court in England. They knew nothing about skiing. They did some things--changed the name and logo, redid the snowmaking, added more water, cut glades, marketed the place, built terrain parks and half pipes, and tried to be a big mountain. They, too, ran out of money and ambition in 2000.
Everyone was really nervous in 2000. By now I had gone off to college but I was still a Burkie. Burke was very challenging to ski--and in high school I found that when I went to other places I could ski more of their trails. I would later realize that this was because other places were intentionally easier to ski and that Burke had made me a better skier. I also got bored with Burke because it was not so flashy. So I tried other places, but Burke was always home.
So in October 2000 at an auction when the mountain did not go to a buyer who wished to run the resort, but to a scrap dealer, I, and many others, cried. Our mountain was to be lost.
One guy would not let this happen. He loved the mountain and had a relationship with BMA. He provided money to buy and run the mountain. He insisted that the community invest in the mountain and they set ambitious goals for season pass sales. Locals responded. Locals donated time and money. Mr. Stenger personally got behind this effort. For once, owners reached out to the community and they responded. It was the community's mountain. I skied here during this time and came home. I saw what I was missing at other places--amazing glades, great snow surfaces, wonderful grooming for tricky terrain, consistent fall line, trails that were fun to ski now that I was better, and the same folks I grew up with. We felt as if we were owners. We still do.
So, when the place was sold to a group of investors in 2005, this same gentlemen hand-selected the management (Ginn) and the owners and made it clear that if anything bad was to happen again that BMA would get the first option to buy it and that the community matters.
This group had huge ambitions and did make huge changes. But Burke remained the community's mountain. Through the economic downturn, massive real estate developments did not happen. I was a passholder during these times, and again, the feel was largely the same. A manager, or two, from a "big" resort company came and tried to make Burke something it wasn't. He lasted a year.
So when Jay bought Burke, I was personally happy because Mr. Stenger has done an amazing job with Jay and knows Burke and the ski business. I also know that he personally knows what Burke is about because he has watched it for years. So far they have done what was desperately needed--snowmaking. I hope they extend coverage.
So what do you gain from my rambling here? Burke is engrained in the locals. Burke has been lucky to have a few gentlemen who had means, but not attitude, and saw to it that Burke continue to operate. I think that we might be able to include Mr. Stenger in that relative handful. Folks who come to Burke quickly learn that it is not a flashy place and that Vermonters are genuine and frank. Burke is that way too. Folks who are accepted are those that are themselves and that do not try to put on an appearance or try to show off their wealth. Burke has always been that way.
And, like a frank Vermonter, Burke will let you know if you aren't a good skier. It will kick your butt (and you will feel, like I did, that Burke is boring because you don't appreciate what it has). But ski it often and it will make you a better skier. I can't say that about many places. It rewards true skiers and riders.
Burke cannot be recreated. Ski areas try to create "rustic" lodges, buildings with "character," and trails that are "interesting." But they bulldozed many trails for more skiers and riders and "lost" a lot of character. These places can build many buildings and add terrain and lifts, but they can't "build" a community and many places that I ski don't have this. Burke has it because it was the only thing that kept it going. Hopefully Burke doesn't lose it.
So keep the locals involved. Listen to them. Keep the skiing reasonably priced. Keep the Bear Den because it is a relic. Keep those fun events such as Pond Skimming. Keep that learn to ski program with the schools because you get passionate skiers like me who will come back for more and will remember and always be grateful for the gift of skiing and riding. Keep those "Kingdom" afternoon promos because, even though straight skis show up and folks will line up at 12 noon for those tickets, these folks will be back again and again (and most can only afford this as the way to ski).
Build on what makes Burke special--its genuine feel, classic terrain, great grooming, and simplicity. Don't widen too many trails. And never lose the community.
Certain things have been engrained in me from birth. For me, baseball has always been Red Sox, and skiing has been Burke Mountain because I grew up in Lyndon. It was always "the mountain". I learned to ski at the "J-Bar" in 1990 thanks to the Learn to Ski Program that the mountain. At that time the mountain needed business as it was run by a creditor bank. At the time, of course, I did not know or understand this. All I knew was it was "the mountain" and where kids went to ski.
Having ridden in the car through East Burke multiple times I had not seen the ski area at all or really even know where it was. The trails are not visible from Lyndonville (unless you look closely) and the base area is, intentionally, buffered from the town. I learned later that the mountain's longest owner and principal designer, a local guy known more for his dairy farm and inheritance from a famous crayon company, always wanted the ski area to be in the woods and that the access road not be cluttered with junk. That remains today. He also had plans to try to convince East Burke to relocate to the Mid-Burke area so that there would be a true mountain village. He wanted the community up at the mountain and he shared it with everyone. Well, that guy plowed his inheritance into the mountain and spent a lot to try to make it feel undeveloped and unique. He hired a big-time manager who came up with big plans--some that locals disputed--and the lower mountain came to be. After years of dreams, and after the start of the work on the "big plans," he ran out of money in the mid-1980's.
I digress. As a kid I always saw locals there. We all skied there. The double was slow, the other major lift was "the quad," and if you were real good you rode the Poma. Every year I would eagerly climb the stairs to Sherburne Lodge wondering if there would be a new trail or a new lift on that big Burke map. Alas, for many years that big Burke map displayed ambitions that still are unrealized. And the trail maps never changed.
We got excited around 1991 that we might see something improve. But the guy, with plans for a Bavarian Village, only had intents to launder money. He did extend the Poma and Warren's Way. We cringed when the resort struggled in 1994 and 1995. Prayed when it went on the market in 1995 again.
We all got excited again in 1995 when several new owners came in. They were international and had a manager who was proud to have built the best and cheapest tennis court in England. They knew nothing about skiing. They did some things--changed the name and logo, redid the snowmaking, added more water, cut glades, marketed the place, built terrain parks and half pipes, and tried to be a big mountain. They, too, ran out of money and ambition in 2000.
Everyone was really nervous in 2000. By now I had gone off to college but I was still a Burkie. Burke was very challenging to ski--and in high school I found that when I went to other places I could ski more of their trails. I would later realize that this was because other places were intentionally easier to ski and that Burke had made me a better skier. I also got bored with Burke because it was not so flashy. So I tried other places, but Burke was always home.
So in October 2000 at an auction when the mountain did not go to a buyer who wished to run the resort, but to a scrap dealer, I, and many others, cried. Our mountain was to be lost.
One guy would not let this happen. He loved the mountain and had a relationship with BMA. He provided money to buy and run the mountain. He insisted that the community invest in the mountain and they set ambitious goals for season pass sales. Locals responded. Locals donated time and money. Mr. Stenger personally got behind this effort. For once, owners reached out to the community and they responded. It was the community's mountain. I skied here during this time and came home. I saw what I was missing at other places--amazing glades, great snow surfaces, wonderful grooming for tricky terrain, consistent fall line, trails that were fun to ski now that I was better, and the same folks I grew up with. We felt as if we were owners. We still do.
So, when the place was sold to a group of investors in 2005, this same gentlemen hand-selected the management (Ginn) and the owners and made it clear that if anything bad was to happen again that BMA would get the first option to buy it and that the community matters.
This group had huge ambitions and did make huge changes. But Burke remained the community's mountain. Through the economic downturn, massive real estate developments did not happen. I was a passholder during these times, and again, the feel was largely the same. A manager, or two, from a "big" resort company came and tried to make Burke something it wasn't. He lasted a year.
So when Jay bought Burke, I was personally happy because Mr. Stenger has done an amazing job with Jay and knows Burke and the ski business. I also know that he personally knows what Burke is about because he has watched it for years. So far they have done what was desperately needed--snowmaking. I hope they extend coverage.
So what do you gain from my rambling here? Burke is engrained in the locals. Burke has been lucky to have a few gentlemen who had means, but not attitude, and saw to it that Burke continue to operate. I think that we might be able to include Mr. Stenger in that relative handful. Folks who come to Burke quickly learn that it is not a flashy place and that Vermonters are genuine and frank. Burke is that way too. Folks who are accepted are those that are themselves and that do not try to put on an appearance or try to show off their wealth. Burke has always been that way.
And, like a frank Vermonter, Burke will let you know if you aren't a good skier. It will kick your butt (and you will feel, like I did, that Burke is boring because you don't appreciate what it has). But ski it often and it will make you a better skier. I can't say that about many places. It rewards true skiers and riders.
Burke cannot be recreated. Ski areas try to create "rustic" lodges, buildings with "character," and trails that are "interesting." But they bulldozed many trails for more skiers and riders and "lost" a lot of character. These places can build many buildings and add terrain and lifts, but they can't "build" a community and many places that I ski don't have this. Burke has it because it was the only thing that kept it going. Hopefully Burke doesn't lose it.
So keep the locals involved. Listen to them. Keep the skiing reasonably priced. Keep the Bear Den because it is a relic. Keep those fun events such as Pond Skimming. Keep that learn to ski program with the schools because you get passionate skiers like me who will come back for more and will remember and always be grateful for the gift of skiing and riding. Keep those "Kingdom" afternoon promos because, even though straight skis show up and folks will line up at 12 noon for those tickets, these folks will be back again and again (and most can only afford this as the way to ski).
Build on what makes Burke special--its genuine feel, classic terrain, great grooming, and simplicity. Don't widen too many trails. And never lose the community.
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So.....how did it go?
from_the_NEK
Active member
Sworn to secrecy.
Not really Just had a busy weekend. I'll try to write something up today.
Not really
Just had a busy weekend. I'll try to write something up today.
from_the_NEK
Active member
Report:
15 people spread out three to a table. List of 12 questions (some were very broad) that they wanted feedback on. Every three questions one person at a table moved to a different table. Each table got a chance to speak to each question as we went down the list preventing anyone from taking over discussion.
The group was pretty diverse. Second home owners, locals, racers, etc. However, I'm not sure that the day tripper crowd was represented.
There was really good discussion on what people didn't want to see the mountain become. I think the concensus was that the mountain had to stay part of the larger community and not become its own isolated community. There was a lot of talk about how to encourage guests at the mountain to explore the local community instead of just hanging out in their hotel. At Jay Peak there is that feeling of isolation. But Jay is really nowhere near a sizable town. So they built their town at the mtn. Burke has East Burke and Lyndonville to provide a lot of the resources guests will need. Restaurants, groceries, etc. Keeping guests engaged with the community will help keep the community positively engaged with the mountain.
Then there was talk of what people wanted to see in the lodges. This is where there was a lot of diversity in discussion. But again, there was a general concensus that the lodge(s) need to be comfortable and not overwhelming. There was discussion about having displays of local art, A Burke Mountain Academy Wall of Fame, a wall of Burke History (like how did Warren's Way get its name).
There was some discussion about non-skiing attractions. The group had some really good ideas from outdoor concerts, zip lines/ropes course, and improvements to MTB.
Then there was discussion about the layout of skiing at the mtn. Starting with East Bowl. It really sounds like the new ownership has not settled on anything over there. Again there was a general concensus that the Bowl NOT be cut up into a bunch of trails. That is the true expert side of the mountain. That is the part of the mountain you can disappear on for 20 minutes and it helps keep people on the mountain longer and out of the lift/liftline. If a lift is put in over there most were in favor of something like a double. Keep the faster pace stuff on the front of the mountain.
Discussion then turned to the progression of skiers at Burke. As we know, the lower mountain is a GREAT place to learn to ski, since is an isolated green pod. However, the next step up to ski the upper mountain and Burke's Blues is HUGE. From the summit there are really only two Blues Upper Willoughby and Upper Dipper. Technically you also have Upper Bear Den and Carriage Road but they both merge back into Willoughby and Dipper creating intermediate bottlenecks on the upper mountain. Add to the fact that Dipper and Willoughby are pretty steep in paces and can be intimidating for a new intermediate skier. Cutting up East Bowl into intermediate terrain was universally panned by the envisioning group. However, there were some really good thoughts about expanding into part of West Bowl to expand intermediate terrain (see below).
Overall I think there was some really good input, the fact that almost everyone seemed to have similar ideas hopefully gives the session that much more weight as the ownership finalizes their plans.
It was good to meet Steve too
Taking a look at West Bowl expansion in Google Earth and there is some real potential to make an excellent middle mountain intermediate trail pod. Most of the pod would consist of already existing trails(some very underutilized, e.g. The Gap). The pod would be served by a shortened Willoughby quad. This intermediate pod would make for a nice stepping stone to the rest of the mtn and help keep the rest of the mountain more expert oriented. Also expands the options for an mid-mtn terrain park (Kingdom-Tele idea).
The Willoughby Quad would be cut off at the bottom of the steeps of Fox's Folly. This would make for a trail pod with about 700 feet of constently pitched vert. Exisiting Blue trails accessable from here inlude: McHarg's Cutoff, Lower Warren's Way, Lower Fox's Folly, Lower Bear Den, The Gap. A traverse would have to be cut over to Lower Willoughby, and the two trails I've added out into the West Bowl. Unfortunately these new trails would intrude on the Birches glade and the new Wayne's World Glade (see overlap with green polys).
15 people spread out three to a table. List of 12 questions (some were very broad) that they wanted feedback on. Every three questions one person at a table moved to a different table. Each table got a chance to speak to each question as we went down the list preventing anyone from taking over discussion.
The group was pretty diverse. Second home owners, locals, racers, etc. However, I'm not sure that the day tripper crowd was represented.
There was really good discussion on what people didn't want to see the mountain become. I think the concensus was that the mountain had to stay part of the larger community and not become its own isolated community. There was a lot of talk about how to encourage guests at the mountain to explore the local community instead of just hanging out in their hotel. At Jay Peak there is that feeling of isolation. But Jay is really nowhere near a sizable town. So they built their town at the mtn. Burke has East Burke and Lyndonville to provide a lot of the resources guests will need. Restaurants, groceries, etc. Keeping guests engaged with the community will help keep the community positively engaged with the mountain.
Then there was talk of what people wanted to see in the lodges. This is where there was a lot of diversity in discussion. But again, there was a general concensus that the lodge(s) need to be comfortable and not overwhelming. There was discussion about having displays of local art, A Burke Mountain Academy Wall of Fame, a wall of Burke History (like how did Warren's Way get its name).
There was some discussion about non-skiing attractions. The group had some really good ideas from outdoor concerts, zip lines/ropes course, and improvements to MTB.
Then there was discussion about the layout of skiing at the mtn. Starting with East Bowl. It really sounds like the new ownership has not settled on anything over there. Again there was a general concensus that the Bowl NOT be cut up into a bunch of trails. That is the true expert side of the mountain. That is the part of the mountain you can disappear on for 20 minutes and it helps keep people on the mountain longer and out of the lift/liftline. If a lift is put in over there most were in favor of something like a double. Keep the faster pace stuff on the front of the mountain.
Discussion then turned to the progression of skiers at Burke. As we know, the lower mountain is a GREAT place to learn to ski, since is an isolated green pod. However, the next step up to ski the upper mountain and Burke's Blues is HUGE. From the summit there are really only two Blues Upper Willoughby and Upper Dipper. Technically you also have Upper Bear Den and Carriage Road but they both merge back into Willoughby and Dipper creating intermediate bottlenecks on the upper mountain. Add to the fact that Dipper and Willoughby are pretty steep in paces and can be intimidating for a new intermediate skier. Cutting up East Bowl into intermediate terrain was universally panned by the envisioning group. However, there were some really good thoughts about expanding into part of West Bowl to expand intermediate terrain (see below).
Overall I think there was some really good input, the fact that almost everyone seemed to have similar ideas hopefully gives the session that much more weight as the ownership finalizes their plans.
It was good to meet Steve too
Taking a look at West Bowl expansion in Google Earth and there is some real potential to make an excellent middle mountain intermediate trail pod. Most of the pod would consist of already existing trails(some very underutilized, e.g. The Gap). The pod would be served by a shortened Willoughby quad. This intermediate pod would make for a nice stepping stone to the rest of the mtn and help keep the rest of the mountain more expert oriented. Also expands the options for an mid-mtn terrain park (Kingdom-Tele idea).
The Willoughby Quad would be cut off at the bottom of the steeps of Fox's Folly. This would make for a trail pod with about 700 feet of constently pitched vert. Exisiting Blue trails accessable from here inlude: McHarg's Cutoff, Lower Warren's Way, Lower Fox's Folly, Lower Bear Den, The Gap. A traverse would have to be cut over to Lower Willoughby, and the two trails I've added out into the West Bowl. Unfortunately these new trails would intrude on the Birches glade and the new Wayne's World Glade (see overlap with green polys).
Thanks. The cutoff of the quad at that point makes sense on paper. But honestly how many folks are going to ride that lift in its current slow state? I know that there was talk about using it in the East Bowl, but I also think they'd have the same problem and folks complaining. Maybe a new drive would be in order?
And they're keeping the Poma, yes? How about a lodge just for racers? The big problem with Mid-Burke is that they really trash the place (sorry, it's the truth).
SkiRaceParent
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Do you mean the BMA kids on the weekdays or the weekend program (or both?). The BMA kids are usually, best I can see, very respectful and take up very little space. As for the weekend program, perhaps you have a point. As for race day, you are definitely correct.
SkiRaceParent
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And the POMA is the linchpin of the entire racing program. Heck, the racing program/academy, to date, has been the entire linchpin to the mountain. Without, based on the history I have heard, the mountain would not even be operating any longer...
from_the_NEK
Active member
Honestly, I think there would be quite a few. Apparently there are a lot of people with kids and other lower intermediates on the lower mountain that want to move up (that's right, I stole that from Jay
). However going all the way to the summit is too much. The shortened line length would only be about 2,175' which is less than half the length of the current configuration. Although the chair is slow, it would only be about a 6 minute ride.
from_the_NEK
Active member
As of right now the Poma stays. However, if the shortened Willoughby plan we are discussing ever comes to fruition, preserving the Poma may become lower priority.
As for a lodge for racers. There are plans for another, more day skier oriented lodge in the area around the Bear Den. However, there would be some hotel rooms in this lodge as well. Exact siting is TBD. However, it sounds like this would be used by racers and skiers that wouldn't want all of the services offered in the Hotel/Lodge being built below the MBEx. I'm pushing for something like this:
from_the_NEK
Active member
A great thing about the Poma right on the training hill is that during the ride back up, racers get a chance to closely watch the other racers that are on training course. I'm sure there are advantages to watching the top performers run the gates and pick their lines.
Pretty much weekends and races. Same goes for Sugarbush's Mount Ellen Lodge with the GMVS races. We've talked about it before here on AZ, but I never understood why the kids just throw their expensive equipment around like that or why nobody even tries to maintain some form of order (encouraging kids to keep their stuff in their bags rather than just throwing them on the floor and on tables). Sorry, no offense intended...it's just the honest observation I've made.
It's also fast and racers are always on the snow during their training. Anyone who has ridden the Poma knows that it is a workout just hanging on and negotiating the steep pitch.
riverc0il
New member
The idea for the Willoughby to be cut in half is excellent. I really like that for a stepping stone between the beginner terrain and the summit. Burke's blues are totally in a different league from most areas, Big Dipper would easily be a black at many mountains. As long as the lift time is a tad shorter than the express lift, I think it would get use. Also, with the expansion we'll see more skiers. I could easily envision Express having Saturday lines long enough that some might prefer to ski right onto Willoughby, especially if they are looking for true intermediate terrain, especially younger and developing skiers for whom a top to bottom run is a touch long (at least for every run of the day). A slight loss to Birches would be sad but no loss in Wayne's World which isn't cleared out enough, IMO. WAY too many small whipper saplings that are too hard to see. It has potential but it doesn't have history, no tears shed if that becomes a groomer. Glad the consensus is keep East Bowl trees and not an intermediate pod.
The one issue I see is that racing closes Warren's Way a fair amount of time, so the idea that folks will be skiing over to Lower McHarg's might look good on paper but does not practically work. And I don't think that intermediates will like crossing Warren's anyway. It's hard to ski the upper part of that trail slowly!
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