buying a ski house/condo in vt

[jack97]

Right now have my eye closer to 91. Not far from Sunapee.

Word from many locals is that Sunapee is more busy in the summer months then the winter. The lake area is a bit hit, my sister's inlaws use their place for summers only, WTF?

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

You're calling that high?

Come to Jersey

That's because Jersey has the best schools..:lol:Here in my town of PA..a 150k house would pay about $2,500 in property taxes.

 

[Paul]

Word from many locals is that Sunapee is more busy in the summer months then the winter. The lake area is a bit hit, my sister's inlaws use their place for summers only, WTF?

Yup. My Sister-in-law's family has a place on the lake. We are looking a bit more west, even closer to 91.

 

[MRGisevil]

Yup. My Sister-in-law's family has a place on the lake. We are looking a bit more west, even closer to 91.

Tim and I are toying around with buying a lot right now...but much farther north- past Warren. We don't want to be by a highway though, looking out in the middle of the woods.

 

[tekweezle]

I looked into near the resorts upstate. I would take 1500-1700 elevation mountain in my backyard if i could make it work....

what is not all that great is that condo prices at the resorts are probably approaching higher prices because they can cash on on the "bubble/subprime proof " NY market for those looking for a less than 2 hour getaway. you could still have to use it as a gateway point to anything better but still doable for 1 day excursions.

i looked at new development prices at Windham and the prices were a "Okemo-like"-500 grand for a 3 bedroom. sheeshh,,,,,,seems like any sort of deals dried up long ago.....

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

friends of ours had a time share at MT Snow Grand Summit...same 13wk deal...they sold it....the problem they had is when trying to go else where in their "Book of Properties" you have to book some of these places 2 years out...they ended up at Disney a bunch of time 'cause thats the only place that had availability and they places they got were not on par with their share at the Grand Summit...just didnt work for them....we looked at getting ski house in VT, but when you add it up, appreciation rates etc, we are better off just going when and where we want and putting the money in our main house we spend 90% of our time....

 

[Paul]

Tim and I are toying around with buying a lot right now...but much farther north- past Warren. We don't want to be by a highway though, looking out in the middle of the woods.

Well, we don't exactly want to have lovely, asphalt views, but since we're about an hour South of you having a few minute drive off of the hwy, and trying to be within an hour to most of the more Central/Southern VT/NH seems to be the best compromise.

'sides, we got a 7 year-old, Dude. 7 year-old.

 

[MRGisevil]

Well, we don't exactly want to have lovely, asphalt views, but since we're about an hour South of you having a few minute drive off of the hwy, and trying to be within an hour to most of the more Central/Southern VT/NH seems to be the best compromise.

'sides, we got a 7 year-old, Dude. 7 year-old.

Oh, I wasn't hatin' on your plan or anything. Tim and I just have a slightly different idea in mind for when we make the great tread up north.

 

[Euler]

...The big kick between the legs on my parents taxes was had it been their primary residence, the tax would've been almost half that. That's Act 60 for you...

Act 60 no longer controls property taxes in VT. The education funding is controlled by Act 68. In fact, the base rate for non-residents is the same in every town in Vermont. In many towns, this non-residential rate is , in fact, lower than the residential rate. The residential rate is set based on some sort of "average" school spending. If a town chooses to spend more than this, so called, average, the residents pay more while the non-residents do not. This is true where I live. If a non-resident buys the house next door to me, her tax rate will be lower than mine.

The reason you see different rates listed for non-resident tax rates in the PDF file cited by Nelsapbm in post # 9 is that these are rates after adjusting for something called the "Common Level of Appraisal". Essentially this means that if a town assesses its average home at a value of $100,000 but the average home actually has a market value of $150,000, then the tax rate is adjusted by a factor of 1.5 so towns can't try to "cheat" the system by intentionally lowballing the assessments.

The system is good - just hard to understand. Also keep in mind that Vermont has to educate its kids just like New Jersey does and we don't have much of a tax base from industry and business. One of the main, if not the main, "industries" in VT is tourism so it makes sense that it must help provide the state's tax base.:smash:

 

[Geoff]

Don't buy in a resort town. Find a "normal" Vermont town and look there. Your taxes will most likely be lower - real estate values in resort towns are much higher than in the rest of the state (with some exceptions).

This just isn't true.

All vacation homes in Vermont are taxed at the commercial rate. There is a statewide school tax and a $300K vacation home in the middle of nowhere in the Northeast Kingdom will pay the same school tax rate as a $300K vacation home in Stowe, Killington, or Ludlow. The other portions of the property tax are likely to be higher out in the boonies because of the lower overall tax base.

If I were buying a vacation home today, there's no way in the world I'd do it in Vermont. The tax rates in the resort towns of New Hampshire and Maine are much lower.

Vermont also has nasty taxes when you sell your property. If you happen to sell in less than five years, any gains fall under the state anti-subdivision and anti-speculation laws so your paper gain will be taxed into oblivion. The long term capital gain is also very heavily taxed with Vermont state income taxes.

In Vermont, the economics of renting probably work out better than the economics of vacation home ownership. The state is a bargain to live there full time if you don't make much income. The state subsidizes your property tax and your income tax rate is tied to the federal income tax rate so you don't pay very much. As an out-of-stater or as a high income resident, the taxes are crazy.

 

[Geoff]

The system is good - just hard to understand. Also keep in mind that Vermont has to educate its kids just like New Jersey does and we don't have much of a tax base from industry and business. One of the main, if not the main, "industries" in VT is tourism so it makes sense that it must help provide the state's tax base.:smash:

Vermont is so anti-business that nobody locates in the state unless the state hands out a substantial tax relief package. The Vermont towns along the Connecticut River Valley are starving because every business that could moved over the river to New Hampshire to be in a more business-friendly climate. The politics of envy get Bernie elected but it also pushed IBM, formerly the state's largest private employer and formerly, by far, the state's biggest private payroll, to bail out. Their facility has nothing but obsolete equipment and it's for sale. It's not just business taxes or commercial real estate taxes. It's everything else, too. The state has crazy healthcare laws that make health insurance very expensive. Unemployment insurance is really high. The state is completely rural where the grocery store is a 30 mile drive for many but they tax gasoline as if they were Cambridge or Berkeley with car-hating bus riders.

The property tax laws in Vermont are indeed very easy to understand.... they're Robin Hood tax laws designed to take from the rich and give to the poor. If you live in a 50 foot double-wide and collect food stamps, your homestead exemption and Act 68 subsidy mean you pay just about zero property tax despite the fact that you've injected a pile of alcoholic behaviour problems into the Vermont public school system.

 

[Euler]

The property tax laws in Vermont are indeed very easy to understand.... they're Robin Hood tax laws designed to take from the rich and give to the poor. If you live in a 50 foot double-wide and collect food stamps, your homestead exemption and Act 68 subsidy mean you pay just about zero property tax despite the fact that you've injected a pile of alcoholic behaviour problems into the Vermont public school system.

Wow, I guess if I lived in a trailer home I'd be insulted by this. Oh, hey I guess as a working family that did benefit from VT's income based property tax rebate system a few years ago I AM insulted by this. :angry:

Not being able to afford a second home doesn't equate with being responsible for "alcoholic behaviour problems".

Anyway, I think this forum's supposed to keep away from politics - so: VT has property taxes, you should find out what they are before you buy property here and decide if the benefits of owning the property merit the costs of owning.

Now, lets go back to skiing.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

It's impossible to discuss skiing without discussing politics..

 

[nelsapbm]

Euler - EXCELLENT explanation of the statewide property tax.
Geoff - when I said that one should look outside resort towns to pay lower taxes.....property values/assements in non-resort towns are generally lower than resort towns. A house in Stowe may have a value of $XXX amount, while a similar property in nearby Elmore might be valued at $X. If they pay the same tax rate, who will pay more tax? The Stowe owner. However, in re-reading your post, it seems like we ARE trying to say this same thing . I guess what I'm trying to say is that, IMO, you get more bang for your buck outside of the resort areas.
Anywho....yes...this is getting political and I'm guilty of continuing it Happy skiing folks.

 

[Masskier]

This just isn't true.

All vacation homes in Vermont are taxed at the commercial rate. There is a statewide school tax and a $300K vacation home in the middle of nowhere in the Northeast Kingdom will pay the same school tax rate as a $300K vacation home in Stowe, Killington, or Ludlow. The other portions of the property tax are likely to be higher out in the boonies because of the lower overall tax base.

If I were buying a vacation home today, there's no way in the world I'd do it in Vermont. The tax rates in the resort towns of New Hampshire and Maine are much lower.

Vermont also has nasty taxes when you sell your property. If you happen to sell in less than five years, any gains fall under the state anti-subdivision and anti-speculation laws so your paper gain will be taxed into oblivion. The long term capital gain is also very heavily taxed with Vermont state income taxes.

In Vermont, the economics of renting probably work out better than the economics of vacation home ownership. The state is a bargain to live there full time if you don't make much income. The state subsidizes your property tax and your income tax rate is tied to the federal income tax rate so you don't pay very much. As an out-of-stater or as a high income resident, the taxes are crazy.

You are referring to the Vermont Land Gains Tax. That was designed to dsicourage land speculation. It only taxes the gain on the land portion of your property. So if you sold raw land within 6 years of purchase you would be taxed on 100% of your gain. The rate depends on how long you owned. For Condo its not bad. Only 10% of your gain is taxed.

The real estate taxes in Vt are a mess. I've never seen a more complicated screwed up mess.

2nd homes are mainly a life style decision. Very seldom are they real strong investments.

 

[Vinny]

friends of ours had a time share at MT Snow Grand Summit...same 13wk deal...they sold it....the problem they had is when trying to go else where in their "Book of Properties" you have to book some of these places 2 years out...they ended up at Disney a bunch of time 'cause thats the only place that had availability and they places they got were not on par with their share at the Grand Summit...just didnt work for them....we looked at getting ski house in VT, but when you add it up, appreciation rates etc, we are better off just going when and where we want and putting the money in our main house we spend 90% of our time....

We haven't had this issue at all when trading weeks. This past year we took a nine week cross country vacation, much of it via trading weeks from Mt. Snow. Stayed in beautiful places in often "tough to get" areas like Sedona, AZ, Vegas, Colorado Springs, and took another vacation to the big island of Hawaii. Our daughter just went to Aruba on a trade. All "Gold Crown" resorts. Never a problem with trades. An important issue is not how far out you have to book, but how early you "deposit" the weeks you own. Unlike most RCI resorts, Grand Summit allows you to deposit owned weeks up to two years out. That gives you a lot more bargaining power. Also, the unit you own makes a big difference. We have a two bedroom lockout which is easier to trade than a studio or similar unit. Then again, everyone has different experiences, and it doesn't work for everyone.

OH...since this is a ski and not timeshare forum.....You are officially allowed to TAKE OFF FROM WORK TODAY! The conditions are incredible.

 

[tekweezle]

supposing i wanted to go the condo route,

what are some of the things i should be looking out for aside from assesments for special projects? what's the average condo maintenance fee? also does anyone participate in their resorts Condo rental plan? how well does that work out?

are prices likely to come down? i figure now is prime season. i was browsing some prices for some places like Mountain Green at Killington. prices looked too good to be true although i know they have a pretty bad reputation for poor maintenance, paper thin walls and renting to the party crowd.

thanks again

 

[ckofer]

supposing i wanted to go the condo route,

what are some of the things i should be looking out for aside from assesments for special projects? what's the average condo maintenance fee? also does anyone participate in their resorts Condo rental plan? how well does that work out?

are prices likely to come down? i figure now is prime season. i was browsing some prices for some places like Mountain Green at Killington. prices looked too good to be true although i know they have a pretty bad reputation for poor maintenance, paper thin walls and renting to the party crowd.

thanks again

Above and beyond all the computations that you may concoct, don't forget to listen to your gut feeling. I guess you need to establish your budget and how you plan to use the property. It seems like a good idea to figure out the cost per square foot of any property investment. I'm guessing prices will start at about $150/sq ft. Condos make a lot of sense when it comes to vacation properties since you won't spend too many days fixing the place or dealing with contractors. I would rent a place for a week or two before establishing a purchase location.

 

[Vinny]

Above and beyond all the computations that you may concoct, don't forget to listen to your gut feeling. I guess you need to establish your budget and how you plan to use the property. It seems like a good idea to figure out the cost per square foot of any property investment. I'm guessing prices will start at about $150/sq ft. Condos make a lot of sense when it comes to vacation properties since you won't spend too many days fixing the place or dealing with contractors. I would rent a place for a week or two before establishing a purchase location.

Renting first is excellent advice. It also gives you a good chance to talk with current owners. I would never buy without renting first. When we were shopping for a condo we stayed at a place that looked great. During our stay we found too many flaws to purchase. We never would have known it without staying there. Example: They had really nice large fireplaces; however, when we went to start the fire there was no draft and the place just smoked up. Even after "warming" the chimney first. Talked to other owners and sure enough "they have a chimney problem throughout the complex and have been waiting over a year for a fix."

Here are a couple of things you may want to check.
What is included in the condo fees? Some places include all or partial utilities.
Do you get cell reception at your unit? If not, you need to include a monthly phone line charge.
Is it cable/Internet ready (if that's important to you.) Who pays?
If you plan to use the place year 'round, double check the hours of the amenities like pool, gym, etc. including off-season.
Ask other owners about any issues, i.e. roof leak issues or others that may cause an assessment later on.