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Cancelling reservations

kingslug

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I was at Hunter last Thursday and Friday. Liftie told me they were sold out Friday and Saturday. Looking around while on the lift I found this ...improbable? He stated that last year they had a 10,000 capacity, this year half that. No way were there 5000 people here. The line was quick and in no way was remotely close to anything I waited on last year. He also stated that they figure only 80% will show up any way..so thats 4000 people.
This is from Epic: If you abuse the system by repeatedly missing or cancelling week-of reservations (or Priority Reservation Days that you booked within 2 weeks of the reservation date), you may lose your reservation privileges for a period of time.
How do they determine abuse?
And cancelling should not be penalized as its the right thing to do instead of just not showing up. The way things are going people are going to be cancelling all the time. And this should open up a spot for the next person.
Thoughts?
 

cdskier

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How do they determine abuse? I'd guess once you hit a certain number of "no-shows" they consider that abuse (personally I'd warn people on a 2nd no-show and start some sort of penalty on the 3rd). A cancellation should be different only to a degree. If you're constantly making week of reservations and cancelling a substantial number of those at the last minute...that still seems like something that could be considered "abuse". It really comes down to the "pattern" of behavior.
 

prsboogie

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Your missing the gist of their response. Don't book if you don't plan of skiing, there are those who will likely pick prime time and have no real intent of going and will do this repeatedly. Those who pick reasonably and have a last minute change will not show a pattern of flagrant abuse.
 

abc

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Your missing the gist of their response. Don't book if you don't plan of skiing, there are those who will likely pick prime time and have no real intent of going and will do this repeatedly. Those who pick reasonably and have a last minute change will not show a pattern of flagrant abuse.
So what?

That wasn't the "contract" for getting a pass!

Katz said "most passholders WILL BE ABLE to ski as many days as they want".

He didn't say "you can ski as many crappy days as you can reserve"!

So what if a passholder WANTS to only ski good condition days???

Will Vail be sued when a passholder who drive to the mountain when the roads are glare ice because they don't want to be flagged as "abuse"?

Better yet, what can they say if you have a cough? Do you reserve for a few days out because you think it'll be gone by then? Or will you be flagged because you miss your "reservation"? (better yet, you CANCEL your reservation!) Or should you just go anyway, the hell with others safety because Vail doesn't care about you?
 

kingslug

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The way the weather swings around here ..its not easy to plan. Out west it really doesn't rain much in the mt's. Since Vail is new to the East..I wonder if they have taken this into account. I doubt it.
 

cdskier

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So what?

That wasn't the "contract" for getting a pass!

Katz said "most passholders WILL BE ABLE to ski as many days as they want".

He didn't say "you can ski as many crappy days as you can reserve"!

So what if a passholder WANTS to only ski good condition days???

Will Vail be sued when a passholder who drive to the mountain when the roads are glare ice because they don't want to be flagged as "abuse"?

Better yet, what can they say if you have a cough? Do you reserve for a few days out because you think it'll be gone by then? Or will you be flagged because you miss your "reservation"? (better yet, you CANCEL your reservation!) Or should you just go anyway, the hell with others safety because Vail doesn't care about you?

Actually it essentially is the "contract" for getting a pass. When they announced the reservation system and the rules surrounding it they offered anyone the opportunity to get a refund at that point if they didn't like the new rules. And anyone that purchased after the rules were announced knew them.

As for most of your examples, those are things that really shouldn't be happening often enough in a single season to flag you for a "pattern of abuse."
 

abc

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The way the weather swings around here ..its not easy to plan. Out west it really doesn't rain much in the mt's. Since Vail is new to the East..I wonder if they have taken this into account. I doubt it.
It may not happen often in Colorado. It happens plenty often enough in Tahoe, where they have a large portfolio

Possibly in their Midwest mountains too
 
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abc

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Actually it essentially is the "contract" for getting a pass. When they announced the reservation system and the rules surrounding it
Not the part about canceling week-of reservations!

Nothing in the "rules" about not allowed frequent cancellation of reservations.
 
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abc

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I got a strong impression Vail want to discourage passholder from making reservation as much as possible! So they can hold up the "you can ski as many days as you want" even under the reduced capacity.

Even if reality is most people can, they want to discourage people from going since they can't make money off these people anyway!

Don't forget, the fewer passholder "reserve", the more likely they can sell day tickets.
 

cdskier

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Not the part about canceling week-of reservations!

Nothing in the "rules" about not allowed FREQUENT cancellation of reservations.
They absolutely had verbiage in the FAQ about "abuse" of the reservation system back when they announced the reservation system. I don't know how you personally define "abuse", but I would have definitely expected it to cover "frequent cancellations" (particularly frequent last minute ones).
 

abc

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They absolutely had verbiage in the FAQ about "abuse" of the reservation system back when they announced the reservation system. I don't know how you personally define "abuse", but I would have definitely expected it to cover "frequent cancellations" (particularly frequent last minute ones).
As the language is vague (was vague, and still IS vague), it won't stand up to much challenge. There's nothing specific about week-of reservation whatsoever.

They may have to refund the pass money if they block a passholder's reservation privilege for simply cancelling week-of reservation too often.

Is someone who reserve all 5 weekdays a week, but only show up for 3 and cancelling 2? How's that compare to someone who only reserve 1 day every week but didn't show for any for 3 weeks straight?
 

cdskier

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As the language is vague (was vague, and still IS vague), it won't stand up to much challenge. There's nothing specific about week-of reservation whatsoever.

They may have to refund the pass money if they block a passholder's reservation privilege for simply cancelling week-of reservation too often.

Is someone who reserve all 5 weekdays a week, but only show up for 3 and cancelling 2? How's that compare to someone who only reserve 1 day every week but didn't show for any for 3 weeks straight?

Good luck...

This is repeatedly stated in the FAQ. It doesn't seem that vague to me.
Our goal is to accommodate everyone who wants to ski and ride at our mountains this season. To make that happen, you should ONLY book week-of reservations for days that you plan to use. If you abuse the system by repeatedly missing or cancelling week-of reservations (or Priority Reservation Days that you booked within 2 weeks of the reservation date), you may lose your reservation privileges for a period of time.

As for your 2 scenarios...the 2nd seems to be a fairly clear pattern of abuse. There's 3 individual instances of making a reservation and not showing up. The first, is the person doing this every week or just once? Just once...that's not really a pattern. If they do that same thing every week, then yes, it is a pattern and should be flagged as such.
 

abc

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The first, is the person doing this every week or just once? Just once...that's not really a pattern. If they do that same thing every week, then yes, it is a pattern and should be flagged as such.
But for many retirees, many DO plan to ski every single day of the week EVERY WEEK!!!

So now they'll be penalized if their body don't hold up by Thursday and they don't feel like they can ski safely on those days?

What pattern of abuse do YOU have in mind of someone who ski most of their days reserved, but miss enough of them as well? They should be punished for their optimism???

The "best" part of your reasoning is, everyone must go skiing on days of following a thaw-freeze cycle because they "reserved it". (and don't tell me it doesn't happen "frequent enough" here in the northeast, particularly in the mid-Atlantic). That will make the mountain busy with people who had no business being there!

Or would Vail, in its infinite wisdom, guided by knowledgeable hands like yours, close the mountain outright in conditions that are unfavorable but anticipate people will come because they're afraid of accumulating beyond their "cancelation quota"???
 
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cdskier

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But for many retirees, many DO plan to ski every single day of the week!

So now they'll be penalized if their body don't hold up by Thursday and they don't feel like they can ski safely on those days?

What pattern of abuse do YOU have in mind of someone who ski most of their days reserved, but miss enough of them as well? They should be punished for their optimism???

Personally I think you're blowing this way out of proportion and coming up with scenarios that are rather unlikely to happen often in the first place. For mid-week there realistically doesn't even seem to be a need to make reservations in advance for your typical day so far. You can make same-day reservations you know. I really don't see there being that many non-holiday mid-week days that "sell out" in the northeast.
 

abc

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Personally I think you're blowing this way out of proportion and coming up with scenarios that are rather unlikely to happen often in the first place. For mid-week there realistically doesn't even seem to be a need to make reservations in advance for your typical day so far. You can make same-day reservations you know. I really don't see there being that many non-holiday mid-week days that "sell out" in the northeast.
I'm playing devil's advocate because Vail had purposely choose to be vague. They've made a CONTRACT when they sell season pass. And they decided to modify the terms of that contract partway through the season.

When Vail announced the "reservation system", they did offer existing customers to cancel their pass if they don't like the newly added reservation requirement. Except the terms of the reservation was not fully disclosed. So now they're specifying a much more restrictive terms on the reservation system. But this time they didn't offer a refund option!

That's why I got the impression they're using this as an excuse to DISCOURAGE people from making reservation unless they absolutely will ski come hell and high water (literally)!

p.s.
On my scenario which you think is artificial. How about modifying it, instead of reserving every midweek day, how about reserving every weekend but skip the ones that's clearly a bullet proof day? Is that abuse? Even when the passholder has every intention to ski on the coming weekend, weather condition unknown? Is that abuse? Or should the passholder show up just because Vail will dock them as "abusive"???
 

nhskier1969

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Your missing the gist of their response. Don't book if you don't plan of skiing, there are those who will likely pick prime time and have no real intent of going and will do this repeatedly. Those who pick reasonably and have a last minute change will not show a pattern of flagrant abuse.
Golfing doesn't have this problem. Most courses have an online booking system that you need to give them your credit card. If the group is a no show, golf courses would charge either full pop or $25 per golfers for no shows. Very, very few no shows in golf.
 

abc

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Golfing doesn't have this problem. Most courses have an online booking system that you need to give them your credit card. If the group is a no show, golf courses would charge either full pop or $25 per golfers for no shows. Very, very few no shows in golf.
Vail could have chosen to implement a no-show penalty. But they didn't.

Granted, if they had chosen to gone that route, it could have a significant impact to pass sales. Or it may not. They clearly didn't want to take that chance.

I bet that option had been mentioned, but rejected.
 

cdskier

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I'm playing devil's advocate because Vail had purposely choose to be vague. They've made a CONTRACT when they sell season pass. And they decided to modify the terms of that contract partway through the season.

When Vail announced the "reservation system", they did offer existing customers to cancel their pass if they don't like the newly added reservation requirement. Except the terms of the reservation was not fully disclosed. So now they're specifying a much more restrictive terms on the reservation system. But this time they didn't offer a refund option!

That's why I got the impression they're using this as an excuse to DISCOURAGE people from making reservation unless they absolutely will ski come hell and high water (literally)!

Do you routinely make reservations at restaurants as well and not show up? This really isn't rocket science. You make a reservation when you legitimately plan to ski.

I still really don't know what you think they've changed. They said how many priority days you would have. They said you could then additionally make "week of" reservations every week. They said abuse wouldn't be tolerated. What exactly is different now then back when this was all announced?
 
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