Half Grooming Bump Runs

[Greg]

Sugarbush plans to reopen this weekend with skiing on Stein's:

http://news.alpinezone.com/16110/

There is some discussion on SkiMRV as to whether Stein's should be fully or partially groomed. However, the above PR says "Sugarbush plans to offer expert-only skiing and riding on Stein's Run". We've had the discussion in the past whether one can truly call themself an "expert" if they can't or won't ski bumps. So the question is, should it be groomed at all? Looks like Killington is half-grooming Superstar this weekend as well and I've heard many mentions that Outer Limits is typically partially groomed nowadays. Whatever happened to "Steepest, longest bump run in the East"? :blink:

I'm kinda torn on this. Many times I've skied with others that don't like bumps all that much. In these instances, it's nice to have trails that are partially bumped and partially groomed so we can still ski the same trail together. Another part of me thinks that grooming half of classic bump runs like Superstar or Stein's sucks the soul right out of them.

I guess this is where we're heading. I have to imagine that most of the general skiing population prefers groomed runs. Bump fanatics seem to be a dying breed. With that said, please respond to the poll as well as it would be interesting to see the results. I say, suck it up and learn to ski bumps. Most likely once you get it, you'll learn to love them!

Bring back the bumps!

 

[wa-loaf]

Bumped runs for me, but the are a fair amount of expert skiers that due to knee and back problems just can't ski the bumps anymore and appreciate a steep groomed run.

 

[Greg]

Bumped runs for me, but the are a fair amount of expert skiers that due to knee and back problems just can't ski the bumps anymore and appreciate a steep groomed run.

I guess you have a point. I just hope I can still ski like HPD when I get old like him ( ). That gives me a solid 20 years of bumping ahead of me!

 

[2knees]

superstar used to be totally left alone when it first was utilized as the late season run. If you didnt want to ski bumps, then people were forced to call it quits when that was the only game in town. I can fully understand why they groom out a portion of it now. It allows for a larger clientele to enjoy may skiing. (may/june skiing is another discussion) However, my beef with the way they handle superstar now, is that they groom the piss out of the majority of the width of the run. they leave the skiers left ungroomed. great, double fall line, messed up bumps. groom half of the trail, on the side, and call it a day.

as far as being more general in nature, i think alot of areas have started grooming more simply because thats what people want. Trees are the big thing for most people now so that leaves the majority of the of the runs to the more casual skier resulting in more groomed runs. i could be way off base on that but it sure seems like alot more is groomed now then used to be.

outer limits is half the beast it used to be. literally. i havent skied it 2 years in a row now. just doesnt have the appeal it used to.

 

[skiadikt]

i'm hoping they leave supe bumped this weekend. they'll groom the skye/bitter route so leave supe for the "experts". often at this time of the year while having a beer in the parking lot at end of day we'll look up at supe admiring "our' handiwork only to come back the next day to find it brutally groomed. please leave it. only prob this weekend is it'll probably freeze overnight and might not soften until 11 or so.

 

[madskier6]

I didn't vote becasue I "prefer" both types of runs (i.e. I like to mix it up during the course of a ski day). Also, there are different types of terrain other than just bumps or groomers (i.e. trees, powder runs, backcountry, etc). I like it when they groom certain bump runs because as Greg said, you can ski that run with others who don't necessarily like bumps. Also, I can ski both surfaces during the same run.

I do agree, however, that for the notorious "bump" runs such as Outer Limits & Stein's Run, they should not groom part of it and leave another part bumped up. It's famous as a bump run so it ought to be all bumps, except for those occasional times during the year when they have to groom the whole trail to "restructure" it if the bumps get too big or too icy. Then they should groom the whole run and let the whole run bump back up again.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I like variety. It's just too hard for me to say that I like either groomers or bumps. My answer is "Yes" I like both of them for different reasons and at different times. My ski day would be boring for me if I only skied bump runs all day or only groomers all day.

I do agree, however, that in order to call yourself an "expert" skier, one has to be a reasonably good bump skier. To me, an expert is someone who can ski virtually any run and any type of terrain. You've got to be able to handle anything that's thrown at you. If you can't ski bumps reasonably well, there's a hole in your "expert skier" resume IMHO.

 

[Newpylong]

You're right about Superstar, the bump lines that are left skiers right and left are double fall line and just aren't as fun.. that said, there are usually much better bumps on the mountain besides Superstar - and I kinda like a steep run like that groomed...

If they still made snow on the entire width of Outer Limits it wouldn't be a problem. But with only snow on skier's left it becomes a problem when they decided to groom half of it.....The weekend of April 20/21 they didnt' touch Outer Limits and it was as old school as they get. We kept commenting how unrelenting it was....

Double edged sword I guess...

 

[Greg]

I guess part of the question should be, what is the appropriate approach at the end of the season when there is limited terrain to work with? I just feel that bump skiers get the shit end of the stick most of the time; those fall away lines on skier's left of Lower Superstar is a good example.

 

[skiadikt]

yeah newpy's right about ol. the left side gets the majority of snowmaking but they the leave right ungroomed. unfortuneately there's lots of rocks etc in there. in the old daze they'd blow the right side first and then pullback and blow the left so the snowmaking coverage was a lot more even.

 

[2knees]

I guess part of the question should be, what is the appropriate approach at the end of the season when there is limited terrain to work with? I just feel that bump skiers get the shit end of the stick most of the time; those fall away lines on skier's left of Lower Superstar is a good example.

leave it ungroomed. period. if you have to wait a couple of hours to let it soften, so be it.

but thats my opinion. the appropriate approach would probably be to groom half the trail. and by that, i dont mean a huge swath right down zee middle, like this.

thanks for this photo andy.

 

[roark]

the appropriate approach would probably be to groom half the trail. and by that, i dont mean a huge swath right down zee middle,.

bingo. It's the swath down the middle that kills me.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I guess you have a point. I just hope I can still ski like HPD when I get old like him ( ). That gives me a solid 20 years of bumping ahead of me!

20 years? You should wish you could ski like me right now you young wiper snapper. :wink:

 

[Greg]

20 years? You should wish you could ski like me right now you young wiper snapper. :wink:

Indeed I do. I also wish I started as a little kid like you. I'm not doing too bad for a guy that started as an adult and I suspect most of my best years are still ahead.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I think it's clear where I stand on the issue. But I'll say it anyway.

I think it should be left alone. As others have alluded to, runs like Stein's and Outer Limits and FIS etc. are historically bump runs. That's their reputation. LEAVE THEM!!! It's the last weekend of skiing. People who don't ski bumps have had the whole season until this weekend. Give us bumpers one last fling for the year. If you consider the percentage of bump runs the rest of the season, I feel like we deserve one weekend of just bumps. Besides, soft corn bumps are very forgiving (if you keep control). Even people who are just intermediates can make their way down a steep bump run in the sun at 50 degrees, and have fun doing it. I see no real reason to groom the trail.

Realistically, however, I would be satisfied with making a couple of passes with a cat, as long as at least half of the trail remains bumps.

Anyone who is upset if Stein's is left ungroomed is welcome to meet me at the top of Stein's at 10:30 Saturday for a bump lesson! :wink:

 

[riverc0il]

When the paying public demands a groomer track, it is going to get one. Bush needs to impress folks interested in buying at Clay Brook and I am sure many of them are groomer only skiers. As much as I am all for natural snow, I expect the big resorts to cater to folks who need a groomed path to navigate the mountain safely and happily, especially when their bottom line depends upon it, especially when they are staying open way longer than common business sense would require. Having Stein's half groomed and half bumped offers skiers the best of both worlds depending upon what they prefer to ski.

I have long been an advocate of the half groom. Certainly not on the classic trails whose character depends upon a natural aesthetic. But the straight and wide fall line trails are prime candidates. However, when ski areas become willing to half groom a typically bumped run I would hope they also look into letting typically groomed trails half bump. Then again, no shortage typically of bump runs at SBS.

 

[riverc0il]

One other aspect regarding terrain... even though certain areas have cut back on certain terrain that some people prefer, there is no shortage of terrain options in the North East. I say vote with your money. Many areas cater to natural snow lovers, those are the areas I prefer to ski, those are the areas that get my money. I have no complaints about over grooming this year in my travels of seven 2k northern new england mountains this season. Then again, I am usually in the trees (bumped when its not powder!) and it is hard to groom the trees so there is always that option.

 

[snoseek]

i think the moguls should take 3/4 of the trail (so when it's bulletproof, you can ski). if it doesn't freeze (hard) overnight nothing should be groomed. do what's best for the snow.
personally i don't worship bumps, just snow.

moguls created by good skiers are pretty fun though.

 

[Greg]

Bush needs to impress folks interested in buying at Clay Brook and I am sure many of them are groomer only skiers

Man. Talk about stereotyping. Why does someone that can afford a share at Clay Brook have to be some sort of unaccomplished skier? I will never understand why folks that are successful in life financially are so often looked at negatively...

 

[millerm277]

I will never understand why folks that are successful in life financially are so often looked at negatively...

More stereotyping, but rich people tend to act more arrogant, and do dumb things because of it, "regular" people tend to stay within their abilities more, and often are nicer.

 

[riverc0il]

Man. Talk about stereotyping. Why does someone that can afford a share at Clay Brook have to be some sort of unaccomplished skier? I will never understand why folks that are successful in life financially are so often looked at negatively...

as i said, i am sure some of them are groomer lovers... never implied all rich people have no skills.

...if Bush sells one more place because a groomer lover had an awesome May day, then mission accomplished. I most certainly did not stereotype all well to do wealthy people as not having skills. I have skied with some rather well to do people that ski on par or better than I do. You over generalized my statement, big time.

The average skier is a groomer lover. I think it is fair to assume the average majority of wealthy skiers are groomer lovers too. How is identifying the average skiing population stereotyping when it is applied to a sub-categorization?