Has ski building technology essentially peaked?

[ss20]

I think the big technology changes should be in clothing - not the gear. I would love to see a ski jacket/pants/gloves - that allow me to ski in -10 with 40mph wind and not get cold. With the battery technology that is out there - this should not be that difficult or expensive.

I skied 3 days in conditions similar/worse than that...never again...

 

[ss20]

Tough to say if the ski industry will ever have another "golden era" like that again. The mid 80's to early 90's benefited greatly from so many existing ski areas making the transition form surface and/or low capacity fixed grip lifts to either higher capacity fixed grips lifts and/or the rapidly evolving high speed lift market. Combined with generally easier to obtain permitting for terrain expansion and the overall solid economy for the majority of that time. Not quite sure such a widespread industry building boom like that was, is economically possible for the entire industry from the small local mom and pop hills all the way up the the big players both today, and going forward. Also, nowadays, for many ski areas, at least some of those expansion dollars are being spent on warm weather activities to develop more of a year round customer base, whereas in the past, the vast majority of those expansion dollars were all geared to winter activities....

I think we'll see things cycle back to a "smaller" sport of skiing. The next "big thing" has been resorts opening up very rugged experiences different from highest capacity lift/trail race that happened from 1980 to 2000 or so. Such as Sugarloaf's Brackett Basin, the Telegraph T-bar area at Bretton Woods, and Mittersill at Cannon.

I also think more mountains like Magic/Mad River/Smuggs will become more prevalent. Minimal snowmaking and minimal grooming. The next spike in energy costs will initiate this. Bigger than that though, if minimum wage keeps rising the labor savings will be huge. I can't fathom the costs that some of these mega resorts face...sending crews of snowmakers and 10+ groomers up the hill...nightly...compared to places that send Phil up the hill in his ol' cat to smooth out three or four trails before he has to go and plow the parking lot for the day.

The industry comes in phases. Remember when snowboarders and their terrain parks were going to take over the whole hill? Ten years later mountains are dropping their halfpipes and terrain parks are going back to being on just one trail or two. Snowboarders are flocking to two-planks under their feet.

 

[deadheadskier]

I agree with some of that, but not the minimal snowmaking part. Places like Cannon, Wildcat and Magic that traditionally have been slight on snowmaking have/are undergoing massive investment in snowmaking. Cannon's system is now probably the most powerful in the state next to Loon and Sunapee.

 

[Jully]

I agree with some of that, but not the minimal snowmaking part. Places like Cannon, Wildcat and Magic that traditionally have been slight on snowmaking have/are undergoing massive investment in snowmaking. Cannon's system is now probably the most powerful in the state next to Loon and Sunapee.

Agree. I think we are going to see less grooming and a lot more of those rugged mountain experiences, but snowmaking will only get more prevalent as the technology improves. That is just about the number one thing smaller resorts seem to get hurt by and often kills them completely in bad snow years.

 

[dlague]

I think we are going to see less grooming and a lot more of those rugged mountain experiences

Do you think so? Maybe on advanced terrain but the lion's share of business is with people who just ski groomers.

 

[drjeff]

The reality is in the East, snowmaking and grooming will continue to be a cornerstone of the industry, over the vast majority of terrain, for as far as the eye can see.

Will there be some niche markets at certain areas? Sure. But by far and away, those will be in the minority in the East. Widespread snowmaking and grooming in the East sells way more lift tickets than limited snowmaking and grooming....

 

[ironhippy]

The reality is in the East, snowmaking and grooming will continue to be a cornerstone of the industry, over the vast majority of terrain, for as far as the eye can see.

Will there be some niche markets at certain areas? Sure. But by far and away, those will be in the minority in the East. Widespread snowmaking and grooming in the East sells way more lift tickets than limited snowmaking and grooming....

Also, doesn't snow making and grooming go hand in hand? Man made snow isn't nearly as nice to ride as natural snow unless it's been groomed (at least in my experience)

I don't see how you could have lots of snow making without also having lots of grooming.

 

[Jully]

Also, doesn't snow making and grooming go hand in hand? Man made snow isn't nearly as nice to ride as natural snow unless it's been groomed (at least in my experience)

I don't see how you could have lots of snow making without also having lots of grooming.

The way I was thinking about it was 'minimal' grooming or less grooming. Places make snow on semi-'nautral' trails. They groom it out and then let it bump up. That would still cost less. Places might even shift to a more rotating grooming schedule to save on money.

 

[Jully]

Do you think so? Maybe on advanced terrain but the lion's share of business is with people who just ski groomers.

You're right. I was thinking more less grooming or more places reducing the number of groomed trails. Grooming is just so expensive and the lionshare of intermediate skiers who do ski groomers and nothing else I don't think care if a place has 85 groomed trails or 40 groomed trails. I could be wrong, but that is how all the friends and family I have feel about groomed trails. For them, skiing 15 groomed blues all day or 7 doesn't really matter.

Leaner ski resorts that can capitalize on this I think will become more prevalent as opposed to places that groom the crap out of everything every night. I think the heyday of grooming is behind us. It will always be a cornerstone, but I think areas will do it in a smarter way aimed at better snow quality and lower costs.

To me that translates to a less glitzy appeal for many mid sized resorts. Places won't be mimicking the luxury of bigger resorts, but providing their own smaller area feel.

 

[machski]

Also, doesn't snow making and grooming go hand in hand? Man made snow isn't nearly as nice to ride as natural snow unless it's been groomed (at least in my experience)

I don't see how you could have lots of snow making without also having lots of grooming.

Not necessarily. SR makes certain trails (think Shockwave, Lost Princess, Upper Downdraft and Quantum Leap) and never or rarely touches them with a cat. To be sure, for them to come out great requires a ton of man power to constantly check/adjust/reaim the guns to spread the cover and ensure the correct balance of water in the snow. Sometimes they nail it perfectly and other times they miss a bit. But most of the time its a blast skiing ungroomed manmade on those trails.

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[deadheadskier]

Not necessarily. SR makes certain trails (think Shockwave, Lost Princess, Upper Downdraft and Quantum Leap) and never or rarely touches them with a cat. To be sure, for them to come out great requires a ton of man power to constantly check/adjust/reaim the guns to spread the cover and ensure the correct balance of water in the snow. Sometimes they nail it perfectly and other times they miss a bit. But most of the time its a blast skiing ungroomed manmade on those trails.

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Wildcat did this last year with Black Cat and Starr Line. They made snow and left them alone. Given the rocky terrain, I'm not sure they could have groomed them out without potentially seriously damaging the groomers. Both skied great after storms and in the Spring, but there were periods of time throughout the season when they were basically icy whales. They definitely ski better if they are left as all natural, but they would have been open many weeks fewer for the season had they not made snow on them. So, I'm in favor of the strategy they used moving forward.

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[Jully]

Not necessarily. SR makes certain trails (think Shockwave, Lost Princess, Upper Downdraft and Quantum Leap) and never or rarely touches them with a cat. To be sure, for them to come out great requires a ton of man power to constantly check/adjust/reaim the guns to spread the cover and ensure the correct balance of water in the snow. Sometimes they nail it perfectly and other times they miss a bit. But most of the time its a blast skiing ungroomed manmade on those trails.

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Shockwave is usually a blast. They do groom out the whales at least a little bit though at first, right?

 

[dlague]

http://freeskier.com/stories/projec...pired-asymmetrical-ski-enters-prototype-phase

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[bigbog]

Shape of that RMU ski has taken what Praxis and other western Indies(Moment...etc) have been doing for years....y/n?

 

[deadheadskier]

I doubt whatever performance increase an asymmetric design offers is something I'd want enough to sacrifice the ability to switch skis to extend edge performance between tunes. Obviously edge sharpness is less of a concern on a powder ski than a carving ski, but I still find myself in places between powder turns that I want to have good edges.

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[dlague]

I doubt whatever performance increase an asymmetric design offers is something I'd want enough to sacrifice the ability to switch skis to extend edge performance between tunes. Obviously edge sharpness is less of a concern on a powder ski than a carving ski, but I still find myself in places between powder turns that I want to have good edges.

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I agree, a pure powder play does not seem practical. That is why over the past several years manufacturers have gone from a almost pure powder design to a powder design with front-side capabilities. Much of this has been done with five point design side-cut and having different flex patterns in the tip and tail compared to underfoot.

Shape of that RMU ski has taken what Praxis and other western Indies(Moment...etc) have been doing for years....y/n?

In some respect yes. But the base design is totally different.

In either case, I posted the article because it seemed relevant to technology design changes. Probably not something I would consider.

 

[bigbog]

........In some respect yes. But the base design is totally different.

In either case, I posted the article because it seemed relevant to technology design changes. Probably not something I would consider.

Got ya' dlague, more to it than just shape:lol:

 

[jack97]

ok, not ski building related but a potential diversion or trainer. VR tread mills are coming out of late which places more of the physical activities in point & shoot and combative vid games. I wonder if the platforms can be made to mimic skiing or boarding where the terrain can be either a race course, glades and moguls.

 

[Jully]

I mean they definitely can be made to, but I cant see it being too good skiing is too much about how the ski feels against the snow to work well with VR IMO.

 

[jack97]

national ski team is using some concepts of this to train the quads. A more challenging phase is making the platform more compact.