It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

[BenedictGomez]

Orca, what exactly is your point here??


You're carping about high taxes in VT, which if compared to a bunch of other states, are not really all that bad. There is plenty of other states with higher taxes and higher living expenses, but I don't hear you bitching about NY, NJ or CT, just to name a few.

This is false.

You have to look at the economic picture in its' entirety, and yes, Vermont really is "all that bad" in this perspective. Vermont is essentially close to as expensive, as expensive, or more expensive to live in (or worse) than some of those above states you referenced. I am quite familiar with both VT & NJ, and I could make the argument that Vermont is actually more expensive than even New Jersey from a C.O.L. perspective once everything's factored in (salary, taxes, food, etc..). To really simplify it, your house is Vermont is probably pretty cheap, but everything else probably isn't. That's the saving grace for Vermont when you looks at hose Most/Least expensive places to live chart. But to think Vermont is a "cheap" place to live is really misguided. It aint.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Virtually anywhere else that has this kind of access to outdoor recreation (skiing, hiking, boating, fishing, hunting, etc) is expensive, devoid of legit job opportunities, isolated from quality cultural and medical facilities, or is not a great place to live year round.

I get all the broader points you made, but I have to disagree with the one above. There are myriad places in this country where you can do all of the above (and frankly much better than in Vermont) and still have a nice job and be 20 or 30 minutes to a hospital, etc...

 

[BenedictGomez]

Let's be real. The future of employment lies within Urban Areas.

I used to get paid to predict the future, and not to be a DB, but I have to chuckle as how poor you are at it from your posts in this thread. Massive CBDs are growing less important with each passing day, and I believe there will be a commercial real estate crisis globally within 20 years. Some are already preparing for this, and I've been thinking how to invest for it ahead of the masses. My best current guess is many corporate skyscrapers will be turned into apartments, with the bottom floor being service industry, restaurants, and surviving retail.

 

[Bumpsis]

Nicely made points, flakeydog.
They closely reflect how my VT living friends (and their friends) feel. Not having a ton of money, they enjoy a lifestyle that's high on value (what you get for your money). With a house close to lake Champlain and a nice sailboat, close proximity and access to everything they treasure, it's a good life, not easily attainable elsewhere.

This especially resonates with me: "Vermont does not look the way it does by accident, there is something to be said about Vermont’s approach to growth and development (I have been to a lot of other places and Vermont is quite unique in this sense)"

You can really feel it, almost from the moment you cross over from NH border. Perhaps it's just the anticipation of having a relaxed time in a truly beautiful space.

 

[raisingarizona]

Better of 2 evils type of voting.
I guess people get pigeon holed into voting by party and VT has a majority of liberal leaning voters (happens the other way in red states). With that said you get what you pay for.

Yup, liberal left politics sound great and nice and all but then there’s reality unfortunately.

 

[Orca]

With that said you get what you pay for.

That statement shows a lot more faith in government than I have. You sure pay, but sometimes you don't get much or, worse, get something altogether harmful.

 

[Orca]

Yup, liberal left politics sound great and nice and all but then there’s reality unfortunately.

+1

Free stuff ain't free. It's taxpayer funded. There is, in fact, a difference.

 

[thetrailboss]

New Hampshire just steals off of Boston's success. I bet if we removed the entire 93 corridor from Salem NH to Concord NH, the rest of NH would be in a similar state as Vermont economy-wise. The rest of NH is just tourism in the White Mountains, some box stores in Lebanon, and whatever happens in Keene.

I don't agree with that about NH "stealing off of Boston's success." Sure, a lot of companies and individuals moved up from Boston, and a lot of folks commute to Boston, but NH has long positioned itself as a low-tax and corporate-friendly state surrounded by states that are otherwise. Hence the retail industry in NH. That said, retail does not create a lot of good well-paying jobs.

For those in Vermont that don't want to pay taxes, simply move to New Hampshire! It's not like we are in the midwest where every state takes 8 hours to drive through.

I think the whole point of the thread is that too many folks have left Vermont. :lol:

 

[thetrailboss]

Bottom line is I can live very well here on a decent salary in a vacation paradise and still be productive in life and raise kids. What could be better than that? Virtually anywhere else that has this kind of access to outdoor recreation (skiing, hiking, boating, fishing, hunting, etc) is expensive, devoid of legit job opportunities, isolated from quality cultural and medical facilities, or is not a great place to live year round.

I used to think the same, but once I got out and traveled I found a lot of places that have all of these things and lower costs of living and better income and career potential. I'm living in one area now.

That “premium” I spoke of before is the quality of life here, it has value. I would have to be a very wealthy man to live this way anywhere else.

I get this as well, but again, my question was how does paying high taxes contribute to this quality of life? It doesn't in fact. Vermont's infrastructure is in shambles because lawmakers from Chittenden county decided that VTrans should not determine what roads need work and they instead shifted control and money to Chittenden County. Look at Route 2. I won't comment about the complete lack of oversight and accountability by Vermont's government the last 10 years other than to say that there is a lot of conflicts of interest, self-dealing, and complete fraud. The attitude is that just because such deals benefit the "left" it is OK. Well, that doesn't make this kind of behavior acceptable. Need I remind folks about the EB-5 scandal? What sensible investor would ever invest in a Vermont business after that debacle?

While I agree that some schools are very good, the fact is that most of Vermont's are not doing that "great" compared to the national average, and when considering the amount of money spent. I'm sure you have read the many articles about how schools are closing and consolidating because of costs. And, most disappointing, the State took over education funding in the late 1990's thanks to the Brigham decision in order to provide all kids with the same opportunities. Now more than 20 years later, guess what? The "gold towns" still have great schools while the rest of the towns are struggling. Here is one article on school performance in Vermont by Art Woolf, and before anyone labels him as "far-right", realize that he is Governor Kunin's former Chief Economist for the State back in the 1980's: https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...ent-test-results-arent-worth-money/525909002/

As to post-secondary education, outside of Middlebury, UVM (to some extent), Norwich, St. Mike's, and Champlain College, schools are really struggling. Vermont lost how many colleges last year? At least three by my count. Vermont's state colleges are grossly underfunded and they are slowly being consolidated and cut back so far that at least Johnson or Lyndon will probably soon be gone. Not good.

Last comment is that the "high quality of life" and community that you and many love is not because of the work of highly-paid bureaucrats, but by people in the community who genuinely care and volunteer to make things better for everyone. Since you said you're from Vermont (like me) you probably get it and honestly you sound like a "doer" in your community. But the truth is that these types of folks have died or left. I'm not the Wolf of Wall Street or some ruthless businessman who only cares about money. I'm a Scout leader. I volunteer with my local community council. I mentor kids who are interested in a career like mine. I do lots of community service projects. I interview kids for my (Vermont) college alma mater. I donate money to many Vermont groups and organizations. I honestly try to be a good citizen and yes, we do pretty well thanks to our hard work. But ten years ago when I contacted my Rep who was the Whip in the Vermont House about concerns about increasing taxes and pushing more young people and other "contributors" out, I was told that "only revenue mattered." So guess what? Ten years later Vermont is struggling much more because "revenue" is down, communities are losing volunteers and other organizations because nobody wants to volunteer or can volunteer, there is a huge drug problem throughout the state, the State cannot adequately fund its public colleges or maintain its roads, and schools are shutting down or consolidating because there are not enough kids to justify costs. What I feared came pretty much true. And now the State lost our "revenue" and our community lost our hours volunteering and other benefits we provided to everyone else. Needless to say, our new area appreciates both.

So it's great that you have a good gig. Good for you. But I think folks do need to take a critical look at what is going on and what needs to change if Vermont is going to be sustainable. Though Orca's posts are attention-grabbing they do raise a legitimate point to be discussed and not dismissed.

And one last comment: the worst part of the situation is that those who can make a difference in the legislature are not at all looking at the underlying problems seriously. Instead, they go on tangents and focus on missions that although are noble are not really pressing at all. The first bill introduced for the session dealt not with these big issues of demographic challenges but instead on "decriminalizing sex work." Nero continues to play the fiddle while Rome burns. :roll:

 

[BenedictGomez]

A great, holistically encompassing post by TTB.

I "gave up" on the future of Vermont a while ago, predicting that it would turn into the hell-in-a-hand-basket that it's currently in the process of becoming now. I told my Vermont side of the family such about a decade or so ago, and they mostly laughed off my predictions & thought I just didn't get it because I'm not a Vermonter.

They're not laughing anymore.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The first bill introduced for the session dealt not with these big issues of demographic challenges but instead on "decriminalizing sex work." Nero continues to play the fiddle while Rome burns. :roll:

I find it absolutely hysterical how grandiose, self-important, completely out-of-touch, and irrational Vermont's house & senate is.

Instead of focusing on jobs for Vermonters, roads & infrastructure, schools, boosting GDP, and other important state issues, they tend to focus on whatever far-leftist issue of the day is currently being discussed on MSNBC & by liberal blogs, Mother Jones, HuffPo, etc.. Often it's national & global (really) issues they focus on, while Vermont continues to slip into decay. As someone else mentioned though, you get the government you vote for.

 

[EPB]

I used to think the same, but once I got out and traveled I found a lot of places that have all of these things and lower costs of living and better income and career potential. I'm living in one area now.



I get this as well, but again, my question was how does paying high taxes contribute to this quality of life? It doesn't in fact. Vermont's infrastructure is in shambles because lawmakers from Chittenden county decided that VTrans should not determine what roads need work and they instead shifted control and money to Chittenden County. Look at Route 2. I won't comment about the complete lack of oversight and accountability by Vermont's government the last 10 years other than to say that there is a lot of conflicts of interest, self-dealing, and complete fraud. The attitude is that just because such deals benefit the "left" it is OK. Well, that doesn't make this kind of behavior acceptable. Need I remind folks about the EB-5 scandal? What sensible investor would ever invest in a Vermont business after that debacle?

While I agree that some schools are very good, the fact is that most of Vermont's are not doing that "great" compared to the national average, and when considering the amount of money spent. I'm sure you have read the many articles about how schools are closing and consolidating because of costs. And, most disappointing, the State took over education funding in the late 1990's thanks to the Brigham decision in order to provide all kids with the same opportunities. Now more than 20 years later, guess what? The "gold towns" still have great schools while the rest of the towns are struggling. Here is one article on school performance in Vermont by Art Woolf, and before anyone labels him as "far-right", realize that he is Governor Kunin's former Chief Economist for the State back in the 1980's: https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...ent-test-results-arent-worth-money/525909002/
So it's great that you have a good gig. Good for you. But I think folks do need to take a critical look at what is going on and what needs to change if Vermont is going to be sustainable. Though Orca's posts are attention-grabbing they do raise a legitimate point to be discussed and not dismissed.

This is right. I'd love to live in close proximity to Burlington/the NVT mountains, but even if a similar job to the one I have now opens up (there are precious few), I'd have serious concerns about what's going to happen to the state budget over the next ~30 years I plan to work. Taking an adversarial stance towards business while funding a large government (per capita) and generous social programs is a recipe for disaster. Tax rates continuously need to rise to cover costs and the state becomes progressively less competitive with neighboring NH, MA and NY.

Businesses and private sector laborers are the life blood of the government's income statement. They pay income, property and consumption taxes. Taking an adversarial stance towards business is akin to a supermarket taking an adversarial stance towards customers. Not every business/customer relationship is advantageous, but taking the baseline stance that business is inherently problematic is myopic and foolish. It feels like that sentiment is prevalent in VT.

Your question wasn't answered as you posed it. Instead, "how do you justify the high taxes in VT?" Was answered. I see this in NJ, too. People say things like "of course taxes are high - I have easy access to NYC". Wrapped up in this is the justification that paying the toll man whatever he wants is just the cost you need to pay. It's a fine justification if it floats your boat, but the blunt answer to your question is "nothing" or "the satisfaction that the government is benevolently throwing money at problems whether it actually solves them (efficiently or at all)". Good on the people that arrive at the decision that VT is for them and it's worth the regulatory burden. To each their own - there's no prescription for everyone.

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[VTKilarney]

There is opportunity in the Burlington area. Mostly because it’s hard to find people who want to live there. Young people want career mobility. Burlington doesn’t offer that as compared to a larger city.

The rest of the state is the big problem. Very good jobs are practically nonexistent. I’ve been lucky, but there is nothing here for my children. Health care is about all there is, and once that is nationalized salaries will go down. And hospitals are already on the verge of bankruptcy thanks to insane state regulations. The hospital in Springfield is a canary in the coal mine.

I love Vermont, but it’s a decaying state. Just look at the demographics.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

I find it absolutely hysterical how grandiose, self-important, completely out-of-touch, and irrational Vermont's house & senate is.

Instead of focusing on jobs for Vermonters, roads & infrastructure, schools, boosting GDP, and other important state issues, they tend to focus on whatever far-leftist issue of the day is currently being discussed on MSNBC & by liberal blogs, Mother Jones, HuffPo, etc.. Often it's national & global (really) issues they focus on, while Vermont continues to slip into decay. As someone else mentioned though, you get the government you vote for.

I like the part where they keep Bernie in office. How much does he do for the State of Vermont, instead of being a professional Presidential Candidate for HOW many years? Lol!!! Yep, you get what you vote for!

 

[Method9455]

My wife and I recently purchased a 2nd home in southern VT (yes, we're part of the problem), and our lawyer pointed out that redeveloping properties has been pretty much choked out by the Land Gains Tax. Considering the additional wear & tear hard winters puts on structures that's one of the reason the housing stock is largely dismal. Thankfully it has been repealed starting in 2020 after roughly 50 years in existence, so that should drive some reinvestment and create more construction jobs.

Vermont is never going to be competitive for things like manufacturing, with or without changes in government policy. But if they lean into education & connectivity it could be a place that draws remote working professionals that want to be close to the mountains. I'm definitely going to be working from our ski house some days because it doesn't really matter where I am most of the time. I doubt I would move their full time, primarily because my family is down here in NJ, but I'm paying taxes now and every day I spend up there is more money into the local economy.

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont...l-spark-growth-or-sprawl/Content?oid=25563832

 

[bdfreetuna]

The first bill introduced for the session dealt not with these big issues of demographic challenges but instead on "decriminalizing sex work." Nero continues to play the fiddle while Rome burns. :roll:

Shit like this is why VT is not even a consideration for our family, even though geographically it would be ideal. I saw California is trying to legalize hookers now too. I'm surprised they don't just draft the bill making it only legal for politicians.

But I guess "whore justice" is a thing now. Talk about a downward spiral. Good news is the snake ends up eating it's own head.

 

[JimG.]

For a while our retirement home was going to be in either VT or NH. VT is off the list after some research.

NH is a tax haven for retired folks, VT taxes social security benefits and everything else. Just waiting a few years for the megapass shakeout to occur to see which ski areas are left that are worth living near.

 

[thetrailboss]

For a while our retirement home was going to be in either VT or NH. VT is off the list after some research.

NH is a tax haven for retired folks, VT taxes social security benefits and everything else. Just waiting a few years for the megapass shakeout to occur to see which ski areas are left that are worth living near.

People knock NH but it has some great places and the White Mountains are pretty awesome IMHO. I cut my hiking teeth hiking the Whites as opposed to the Greens because there is so much more awesome stuff to hike and see in the Whites.


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[EPB]

People knock NH but it has some great places and the White Mountains are pretty awesome IMHO. I cut my hiking teeth hiking the Whites as opposed to the Greens because there is so much more awesome stuff to hike and see in the Whites.


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The ski areas are generally bigger/better in VT, but the mountains are much bigger in NH. The scenery in NH is superior in my humble and biased opinion, too.

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[BenedictGomez]

The ski areas are generally bigger/better in VT, but the mountains are much bigger in NH. The scenery in NH is superior in my humble and biased opinion, too.

Is the rural NH countryside being destroyed by gigantic, ugly, industrial, wind turbines like it is in VT?