Killington - Expert trails CLOSED, with NO Snowmaking....

[drjeff]

Yes and No. If done correctly yes the other no.




Have you ever groomed or made snow before? Or just what you hear?




The K3000 gun was one of the best in temps below 22 degrees. They would make snow and had a very good throw to them. New HKD's are good in all temps, but do not have the throw to them. Tower guns less labor, ground guns more labor in making snow. Ground guns on a stand (Tripod) are labor intensive.

(Below) K3000 on a sled. This was a quick conversion. The sled use to have a Larchmont gun on it, but the worked. Sled was easy to move around for snowmaking and transporting it.

K3000 setup on a tower. This was another quick conversion, again this all so use to have a Larchmont gun on it. You had the power of a K3000 mounted on a tower and a boom to make snow with less labor.

Both were from the K's tower guns idea mounted on the snwomaking pipe. It was a start of an idea for tower guns.

Thanks for the cool pics and great information mountainman! I was wondering what your opinion would be about lining a trail like OL with a bunch of BIG tower mounted fan guns vs. air/water guns (mounted on any assembly of choice)?? I know that the initial up front cost for the fan guns is significant, but having seen the throw capabilities and production output they give over a wide range of temperatures at Mount Snow these past 4 or 5 seasons, they almost seem to be tailormade for trails with over 200 feet of width. Just curious as to what an expert would think about this.....

 

[Highway Star]

The K3000 gun was one of the best in temps below 22 degrees.

Killington still uses the K3000 extensively. Mostly on tripods but some on small towers. They have excellent throw even on the ground, but even better off it.

The older style tower guns also have pretty good throw. The ones with the flat nozzle and medium holes. There are still many in place at K.

It really comes down to old air-hog guns VS. new high-E guns. The new guns on OL are modern high-e types with 10 tiny nozzles. I'm sure they use very little air, but they on put out a puny mist that gets blown back in any sort of wind. An old style gun like the K3000 is pretty much a firehose, and throws much further.

 

[mountainman]

Reponse to Dr. Jeff,

Thanks. I don't consider myself as an expert, just one who has been in the industry for too many years. Not a bad idea with the fan guns. Most areas do not want to spend $20K or more on a fan gun they cannot move. You can buy 10 HKD's and be able to move if needed. Mt. Snow was a great place to have fan guns and glad to hear they are working well. It comes down who makes the decisions and what works best. Fan guns on OL would be a major cost I don’t think the K is willing to make right now.

 

[Highway Star]

We've been asking for a few fan guns on Killington's big trails for about 5+ years now. Good luck.

 

[steamboat1]

Today it's upper Bunny Buster, Highline, Panic Button & Needles Eye closed to the public for racing.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Newpylong]

Another factor is you would think due to the pitch of OL it would be difficult to get the fan guns up in the first place for installation, and then maintenance going forward...

I think some of their lower angle wide terrain is a better place for them...

 

[Ski the Moguls]

Today it's upper Bunny Buster, Highline, Panic Button & Needles Eye closed to the public for racing.

Thanks for your understanding.

Bunny is only blue, lots more of those. Panic to Needles is really just one trail. Highline also does not run the full length of the hill, but I'll give it to you. So, 2 blacks were closed to racing today. Here's 10 black trails that were open. And you wonder why no one is listening to you?
Skyeburst
Wildfire
Outer Limits
Cascade
East Fall
Catwalk
Escapade
Superstar
Mouse Trap
Conclusion

One added benefit to those reserved racing trails is that, on weekends, they keep a lot of the kids busy and out of our way on the rest of the mountain.

 

[bobbutts]

Another factor is you would think due to the pitch of OL it would be difficult to get the fan guns up in the first place for installation, and then maintenance going forward...

I think some of their lower angle wide terrain is a better place for them...

these are the tower mounted fan guns at Pat's Peak
shows one way to mount that type of gun on a steeper run and still be able to maintain it

 

[Newpylong]

Good point, I guess Berkshire East has a similar setup on the front steeps...

 

[Nick]

I can never tell when you're being sarcastic or not. Anyone else have an opinion?

I grew up skiing Killington every year and was a passholder for many years. Killington still remains one of my favorite places to ski, although I haven't gotten up there yet this year.

All places are facing difficulties and sacrifices with the weather, as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy to be at K.

 

[ALLSKIING]

I grew up skiing Killington every year and was a passholder for many years. Killington still remains one of my favorite places to ski, although I haven't gotten up there yet this year.

All places are facing difficulties and sacrifices with the weather, as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy to be at K.

+1

 

[MadPatSki]

Repost from the other K thread.

First off, I was never a K regular...well, only in the Spring when skiing ended in June a, what it seems to be, a long time ago.

K made some bad decision which didn't put the skiing first. I generally don't participate in these thread, cuz I don't care anymore. I've written tons of posts maybe 7-8 years ago about K failings. Nothing is new and nothing is going to cease to amaze me.

K = no more June 1st slalom
K = no more longest season
K = missing the May 1st slalom
K = major expert run still haven't seen any snowmaking
K = no more Bear Mtn Mogul Challenge

How many strikes do you need to see that K is an EPIC FAIL.

I propose a 6 month ban on K= epic fail threads. :flame:

Better yet, I proposed a ban on new topics AND a sticky on one that says that K is an EPIC FAIL. Everyone is happy.

 

[Geoff]

I don't think the current Killington management understands how much damage they're doing by not blowing snow on all their expert trails. In the past, you picked Killington as the place for your share house and season pass because it minimized the risk in a bad season; and the lengthy season added a perception of value. That core base is what creates the critical mass to pull in the day ticket people. Killington is a huge, sprawling place that is very expensive to cover with man made snow. If you don't get the business volume, you can't justify making the snow. The resort goes into a death spiral.

I'm trapped since I own real estate. Anybody who rents can go elsewhere. Most of the Boston market has already deserted ship and buys Boyne passes. That's millions of dollars of incremental revenue removed from the bottom line. The metro-NYC market has fewer options but Vermont skier visits have been flat for 6 years as Killington has lost several hundred thousand skier visits so they're obviously going elsewhere. As my friend Rogman says, "I've never heard of a business plan where you intentionally set out to lose market share."

 

[Highway Star]

I don't think the current Killington management understands how much damage they're doing by not blowing snow on all their expert trails. In the past, you picked Killington as the place for your share house and season pass because it minimized the risk in a bad season; and the lengthy season added a perception of value. That core base is what creates the critical mass to pull in the day ticket people. Killington is a huge, sprawling place that is very expensive to cover with man made snow. If you don't get the business volume, you can't justify making the snow. The resort goes into a death spiral.

I'm trapped since I own real estate. Anybody who rents can go elsewhere. Most of the Boston market has already deserted ship and buys Boyne passes. That's millions of dollars of incremental revenue removed from the bottom line. The metro-NYC market has fewer options but Vermont skier visits have been flat for 6 years as Killington has lost several hundred thousand skier visits so they're obviously going elsewhere. As my friend Rogman says, "I've never heard of a business plan where you intentionally set out to lose market share."

One of the main reasons I stick with Killington is the variety and the durablity in a bad snow year. If they just give up when the weather isn't in their favor, or schedule events that waste resources, that's one more reason I should be looking at skiing sugarbush, or somewhere else.

 

[steamboat1]

One of the main reasons I stick with Killington is the variety and the durablity in a bad snow year. If they just give up when the weather isn't in their favor, or schedule events that waste resources, that's one more reason I should be looking at skiing sugarbush, or somewhere else.

Like I said in an earlier post Stratton is doing the same thing as K had to do for the DEW Tour since they are hosting the U.S. Open early next month. Just as much snow making resources are being devoted to creating the 1/2 pipe & other features as Killington had to devote to creating theirs. Difference is Stratton hasn't taken away snow making effort from the rest of the mountain.

 

[oakapple]

Stratton is doing the same thing as K had to do for the DEW Tour since they are hosting the U.S. Open early next month. Just as much snow making resources are being devoted to creating the 1/2 pipe & other features as Killington had to devote to creating theirs. Difference is Stratton hasn't taken away snow making effort from the rest of the mountain.

Timing makes a huge difference. The Dew Tour came to Killington relatively early in the season, while Stratton is hosting the U. S. Open relatively late.

 

[Rogman]

One of life's little ironies is that often a shrinking business can be more profitable in the short term than one that is expanding. A growing business requires continued re-investment to sustain that growth, whereas a shinking one has no such issues. Now I don't really think K is shrinking in the classic sense, but their dominance of the marketplace has certainly waned. They've shown a sad willingness to be nothing more than just another New England resort, excellence, when it comes at a cost, has gone by the wayside.

This is a year when every resort is struggling: Mother Nature has dealt them all a pretty dismal hand. I'm sure by the time the season is over, skier visits in the North East will be off by 10%, or even more. However some resorts will lose a greater percentage than average, others less. As always, but particularly in a season such as this, skiers and riders will flock to an area that they perceive has better conditions and offers better value.

The lack of snow stresses the equilibrium; people are more willing to move, to try another mountain. A bad season is in fact, an opportunity. It is much easier to look good against the competition when you're a 100% open with great conditions, and they're not.

Some resorts are just struggling to survive; I don't blame them for hunkering down and just riding out the season. Killington is not in that category, however. By their short term view of profitability, I think they've squandered an opportunity for long term growth. Simply put: blowing more snow, running more lifts, doing all the things a first class resort does, may decrease this years numbers, but provide a better basis for long term growth. And that applies not just to Killington, but to any resort.

 

[threecy]

A very significant portion of variable (ie through the window) sales are made Christmas Week, Martin Luther King Weekend, and President's Week.

Two of those three revenue centers have come and passed without banner snowfall or crowds. The final one is 10 days away.

President's Week will need some sort of snow event to make it a big money maker. So, we have a few possible outcomes:

- Killington dumps six figures into snowmaking, no snow event happens, numbers stay down.
- Killington dumps six figures into snowmaking, a snow event happens, the snowmaking probably ends up being an unnecessary expense.
or
- Killington cuts back snowmaking, no snow event happens, operating obligations are met.
- Killington cuts back snowmaking, a snow event happens, more trails open, and the crowds come.

The way this season is going, the latter may be the best decision. It would take one heck of a March to rebound if President's Week is a relative bust. That hypothetical one heck of a March would cover the trails in plenty of natural, so a big snowmaking expense now wouldn't be needed.

 

[oakapple]

Now I don't really think K is shrinking in the classic sense, but their dominance of the marketplace has certainly waned. They've shown a sad willingness to be nothing more than just another New England resort, excellence, when it comes at a cost, has gone by the wayside.

I'm not sure what "classic" shrinkage would be; perhaps taking terrain off the map, which last occurred in the 1990s, when the Northeast Passage and upper Ramshead closed.

But the loss of the South Ridge Triple certainly must be counted as shrinkage. That trail pod has been closed for most of this year, and even when open, you basically get one shot at it, and it's probably a 30-45 minute trip back up to the top if you want to ski it again. They might as well have chopped that terrain off the map. (I believe some of the South Ridge trails did get snowmaking in years past.)

On top of that, there are lifts that used to run on weekdays and no longer do.

Then you add the trails where snowmaking capability exists, but none has been blown, and you're looking at a drastically reduced Killington. This year, it is no longer the Beast of the East by any remotely conceivable definition. About the only point in their favor is that they were the first to open and stay open, but October feels like an awfully long time ago.

 

[Highway Star]

I'm not sure what "classic" shrinkage would be; perhaps taking terrain off the map, which last occurred in the 1990s, when the Northeast Passage and upper Ramshead closed.

But the loss of the South Ridge Triple certainly must be counted as shrinkage. That trail pod has been closed for most of this year, and even when open, you basically get one shot at it, and it's probably a 30-45 minute trip back up to the top if you want to ski it again. They might as well have chopped that terrain off the map. (I believe some of the South Ridge trails did get snowmaking in years past.)

On top of that, there are lifts that used to run on weekdays and no longer do.

Then you add the trails where snowmaking capability exists, but none has been blown, and you're looking at a drastically reduced Killington. This year, it is no longer the Beast of the East by any remotely conceivable definition. About the only point in their favor is that they were the first to open and stay open, but October feels like an awfully long time ago.

Deleting the Devils Fiddle quad also counts as shrinkage.