Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[mondeo]

Not really, because I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening!

So here's the crux of POWDR's problem...you may not consider it a quality opening, but your customers do.

 

[mister moose]

Not really, because I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening!

Just curious, what would you call an area that opened last year with these signs posted?

"Early/Late season conditions exist - Some walking required."

 

[Geoff]

Just curious, what would you call an area that opened last year with these signs posted?

"Early/Late season conditions exist - Some walking required."

I'd call it Killington when the Excel spreadsheet said it was supposed to be open. Clearly, the Excel spreadsheet didn't call for it to be open on Friday October 22nd. Sunday River didn't seem to get the memo from Utah.

 

[bigbob]

I'd call it Killington when the Excel spreadsheet said it was supposed to be open. Clearly, the Excel spreadsheet didn't call for it to be open on Friday October 22nd. Sunday River didn't seem to get the memo from Utah.

I think that SK let's the decision to open come from Newry, no need to call Michigan!

 

[Barnibus]

So here's the crux of POWDR's problem...you may not consider it a quality opening, but your customers do.

It was in fact quality product, Anything above northridge last weekend= faceshots, bottomless snow. No reason not to have been open. PERIOD Did not hit ground once. And there was enough snow for an opening weekend crowd.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

I wonder what kind of damage both Sunday River and Killington suffered from last nights heavy rain and todays warm temps. I know in the Upper Valley of NH that we got some really heavy rain with temps in the 50's last night. Today it got even warmer with temps in the high 60's. It appeared from the radar last night that K and SR were not spared.

 

[neil]

Doesn't look that good on the Killington cams, but I don't know if you can see the area where they were making snow on them.

 

[Puck it]

Peak cam show some snow on GN but it is only a sliver.

 

[oakapple]

I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain. . . .

I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, on top of that, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.

 

[Greg]

But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, on top of that, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.

:lol:

 

[mondeo]

I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, on top of that, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.

I don't accuse them of being completely spreadsheet driven, but I do know they pack the place for just Rime and Reason. Maybe it's all season pass holders, and SR opening is all Killington skiers so SR makes money when Killington doesn't.

If they only considered day to day profits, then blowing snow in front of meltdowns the last two years is more than mindboggling. Blowing snow for a chance of opening and then having unreasonably high expectations for snow coverage mid-October makes a little more sense. Not much, but a little.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, on top of that, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.

I don't think it's ironic at all, or at least you're misunderstanding the underlying nature of the complaint when people are saying POWDR is spreadsheet driven. What they mean is that POWDR is making a simplistic calculation based upon lift ticket revenue they can generate on an October day by going for an early opening vs. the money spent on snowmaking to achieve said early opening. The criticism is that this has the impact of destroying the one thing K-Mart has always stood for (leaving their market positioning completely adrift), makes a mockery of their attempt to reclaim "Beast of the East" status and erodes the equity and goodwill of their most passionate supporters/homeowners/local businesses who signed up years ago predicated on a 7-8 month season.

Aside from that, it's a smashingly successful business decision. Just look at all of the customers they've chased away since they bought the place.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Aside from that, it's a smashingly successful business decision. Just look at all of the customers they've chased away since they bought the place.

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story. Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA. Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later. BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there. So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...

 

[gmcunni]

The criticism is that this has the impact of destroying the one thing K-Mart has always stood for (leaving their market positioning completely adrift), makes a mockery of their attempt to reclaim "Beast of the East" status and erodes the equity and goodwill of their most passionate supporters/homeowners/local businesses who signed up years ago predicated on a 7-8 month season.

are they pushing the Beast of the East marketing campaign this year?

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story. Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA. Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later. BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there. So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...

Enter Geoff.............

I am only a 5 year passholder at K so I will defer to Geoff and others who not only been there longer, much longer, but to those who have a stake in the future of Killington ie property owners.

A few things to expect.....

Yes the days of the bronze pass is gone, so you lose a chunk of people from that segment, but on top of that many feel (I believe Geoff has some good data) they have driven away many of the core Killington customers. Those core customers are those who chose Killington over others because of an October to late May season. By not having this long season Killington has become just like every other mountain around in terms of season length. I believe you will also here that midweek is down because of the closing of certain pods/lifts, ski lessons/school is priced through the roof now, etc. I could go on, but like I said, I will leave this up to the people who have been there longer and have a larger stake in Killington.

 

[abc]

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story. Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA. Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later. BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there. So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...

I'm not a K regular. I don't have a pass. I used to ski K a few weekends a season. But lately I haven't gone as often. However, when I used to go to K more, it's often late in the season!

The truth being, I like K but not overly impressed by it. When everybody is open, I have a hard time deciding where to go. But come late April/early May, K is the only game in the lower VT and within a 5 hr sphere of NYC. Granted, the lift ticket is no longer full price, which also appeals. Though the advantage is doubled since lodging cost also drops considerably late April on. So for me, one of K's virtue is indeed it's long season!

Does the late season visitor count and lift ticket receipt justify openning early and late? Maybe or maybe not. But by NOT staying open passed other mountains' closing date, it's now an also-ran instead of THE premier mountain of the NE. Now that I can't ski in K late season, I rarely ski there. So when others ask me for suggestion of where to do, K is no longer in the list...

Openning early and late is partly advertising. When you're the only game in the entire NE, you have a captive audiance. Give it up, they'll have to work much harder to achieve the same advertising visibility.

 

[roark]

The problem is that without an early open & late close, K isn't any more appealing than Sugarbush, MRG, Stowe, Jay, etc. For me, the drive time is only marginally more to get to those places. Let's be real, the terrain at K is middle of the pack of that list, and sustained skiable vertical is as well.

For decades, K's niche has been early/late. That is 'Beastly.' The current K is just another McMountain.

 

[millerm277]

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

Yes. Traffic is down 30%+ from the 90s, while other areas have gained, and a large portion of that is SINCE Powdr's takeover. Other people have numbers from the sales tax receipts and traffic counter numbers that show a continuing decline.

While other areas could reposition themselves, Killington's biggest asset was the season and the size of the mountain. Both have shrunk. They don't have a village for the Okemo/Stratton crowd, and most likely never will, and the mountain's terrain and layout is very much geared toward a higher-level skier.

SR and the Loaf are making a compelling case for switching mountains if you're within their drive distance, and Killington isn't doing much to stop it besides always coming in second in everything.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

There's no question that POWDR has driven away skiers, though certainly not intentionally. When they took over, they shortened the season even further than ASC had in its latter years, and made a number of boneheaded, tin-eared decisions that alienated many of their most devoted customers. While they have subsequently reversed many of these, the damage has been done and those skiers are gone forever. It's not just about not being open October to June (May was always a given). It's about over promising and under delivering, blaming others for their own mistakes/policies (i.e. no alcohol at the BMMC), killing the mid-week rental business by refusing to operate Skyeship, and not working in a cooperative manner with the town on their Village plans. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. My God, these shitbergs can't even concede that they didn't open first this year w/o dissing the competitor that beat them to the punch. There are lousy people pushing lousy policies on a mountain that isn't all that special w/o a huge commitment to snowmaking whenever and wherever possible.

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story. Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA. Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later. BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

Show me an analogous ski area in PA. Where mountain in PA has traditionally been known as "the Beast of PA" but has since abandoned that in reality while continuing to use it as a marketing slogan? Of course they don't make much money on the days they open early and late in the season, but that is what people mean by operating by spreadsheets. Opening early and late is an investment in your brand to be the biggest and baddest, as well as a clear incentive to prospective season passholders to spend their dollars at your mountain b/c you'll have the longest season. I can tell you from personal experience that, growing up in CT, I always use to ski one day on Thanksgiving weekend and on X-Mas day (aka National Jewish Ski Day). I would invariably choose K-Mart for this day trip b/c I knew they had been open since mid-October and, in the days before the internet, I simply assumed they'd have the best conditions and most trail options. I highly doubt I was the only one making decisions on this basis. K-Mart has pissed that advantage away.

 

[threecy]

My God, these shitbergs can't even concede that they didn't open first this year w/o dissing the competitor that beat them to the punch. There are lousy people pushing lousy policies on a mountain that isn't all that special w/o a huge commitment to snowmaking whenever and wherever possible.

Classy.