Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[mondeo]

that's fair. for other demographics i suspect Killington has plenty of competition to the south.

Yeah I would be pissed, because I work in a year round resort as the restaurant manager. They NEED me to be there year round. Same applies to you Im sure. Unless you work at a ski area with next to no summer activities, your comparison does not apply.

Killington is not really a year round area (yes they have mtn biking etc, but lets be real here, they can run on about 1/10th the staff in the summertime. So what exactly do they need a bunch of year round staff for?

So no, I dont think they should hire a bunch of year round people with benefits just because it feels good.

Cashiers are one thing, the mechanical staff is another. If you need skilled staff in the winter for lift and groomer maintenance, it's probably hard to find good people that are willing to only work for you half of the year. And if they really wanted to, they could make MTB into a much bigger attraction. It's pretty ridiculous that there's nothing close to Whistler in the East given the size of the local markets they have to draw from and that the size and pitch of the mountain doesn't come into play nearly as much. I think there are a couple places that are moving in that direction, but there's still a long way to go. No reason Killington should be the place to do it, but also no reason against it if they have the will.

Not a chance they open this weekend. Too much loss and they want to open with GN to Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall. I could eat my words though. Let's hope.

No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.

 

[Geoff]

I'm not disuputing your numbers Geoff, I'm just bringing this up for discussion sakes Sorry if it has been hashed out previously here at AZ.

Could part of their decline in numbers be because the industry as a whole is down. I have no fact in this, but I think in roughly the same time period the industry took a hit as a whole.

Obviously 30% is alot, and I don't think everywhere is down 30%. Has Sugarbush, Stowe, and other NH and ME areas seen an X% increase that can directly correlated to killington skiers that have moved on?

Vermont skier visits have been fairly flat at 4-ish million per year for the last decade. The 30% drop at Killington was not reflected elsewhere. In particular, Okemo set records since they picked up a lot of the family business that was priced out of Killington when they jacked up their kid ski school prices.

These are Vermont Ski Areas Association numbers. Killington no longer releases theirs.
2009 - 2010 4.1 million
2008 - 2009 4.1 million
2007 - 2008 4.3 million
2006 - 2007 3.8 million
2005 - 2006 4.1 million
2004 - 2005 4.4 million
2003 - 2004 4.2 million
2002 - 2003 4.4 million

 

[Geoff]

No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.

After four years of watching these guys, all I know is that they are extremely conservative. They could easily defer opening for a couple of more weeks if they don't like the looks of the long range forecast even if Rime has plenty of snow on it. They will open when they open.

 

[AdironRider]

Cashiers are one thing, the mechanical staff is another. If you need skilled staff in the winter for lift and groomer maintenance, it's probably hard to find good people that are willing to only work for you half of the year. And if they really wanted to, they could make MTB into a much bigger attraction. It's pretty ridiculous that there's nothing close to Whistler in the East given the size of the local markets they have to draw from and that the size and pitch of the mountain doesn't come into play nearly as much. I think there are a couple places that are moving in that direction, but there's still a long way to go. No reason Killington should be the place to do it, but also no reason against it if they have the will.


No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.

HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served.

Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for.

Oh, and MTB is not like skiing, you want green and blue groomer terrain to build the goods for MTB.

And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it.

And I get it, I come off a soulless for saying people shouldnt get their benefits, but its the truth.

I didnt say nobody should be benefits either though, so keep throwing out examples, but you dont need to keep a bunch of year round staff with full benis at a ski area thats open, at best, 5 months out of the year.

 

[Geoff]

HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served.

Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for.

Oh, and MTB is not like skiing, you want green and blue groomer terrain to build the goods for MTB.

And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it.

And I get it, I come off a soulless for saying people shouldnt get their benefits, but its the truth.

I didnt say nobody should be benefits either though, so keep throwing out examples, but you dont need to keep a bunch of year round staff with full benis at a ski area thats open, at best, 5 months out of the year.

FYI: The lease for the State of Vermont for all the state forest land at Killington requires that Killington run a lift in the summer. I believe that without that provision in the lease, the POWDR version of Killington would completely close the resort for the warm 6 months. Unless the Texas boys at Eiger/E2M Ventures who control all the devevelopable land for the village insist, I doubt we'll ever see any upgrades to the Killington summer operation.

 

[mondeo]

HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served.

Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for.

Oh, and MTB is not like skiing, you want green and blue groomer terrain to build the goods for MTB.

And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it.

And I get it, I come off a soulless for saying people shouldnt get their benefits, but its the truth.

I didnt say nobody should be benefits either though, so keep throwing out examples, but you dont need to keep a bunch of year round staff with full benis at a ski area thats open, at best, 5 months out of the year.

Been to both Whistler and Highland. Trouble for Highland is lack of existing infrastructure; it's great for what it is, but I have a hard time seeing it becoming a MTB destination or expanding much beyond what they already have. Really, Mt. Snow or Okemo are in the best position to do it; big enough both in terrain available and supporting services (food, lodging, etc.,) reasonably close to both Boston and NYC, and existing base of vacation home owners to draw from. Point is, market is fairly ripe for the taking to the first entrant if they go full bore at it.

And I don't think people are necessarily against scaling back from what ASC did, the issue is the manner and scale - abrupt and total.

 

[abc]

I don't think MTB make money for the mountain though.

I used to ride in K a lot. I can count the number of riders if I want. It's nothing like skiing...

 

[deadheadskier]

And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it.

.

I have a hard time buying 'several million' for Whistler's MTB operation.

Maybe if you factor in overall lodging and F&B revenue.

I worked at Snowshoe, WV for two summer seasons. Snowshoe has as big of a MTB operation as any resort in the east plus including a couple of the biggest MTB events each summer. I can't remember the numbers, but the direct access revenue (read lift/trail usage fees) for the program couldn't have exceeded 100K. If the residual income of lodging and F&B exceeded 1 million from that operation I'd be shocked.

Snowshoe is no Whistler, but it's a big time resort. They draw 500K skier visits a seaon and the summertime there is very busy as well.

The full fiscal year I was there, the resort did 38 million in revenue. About a quarter of which was in the summer where the goal was to simply break even and be busy enough to retain a solid year round staff.

MTB could certainly help K in the summer, but I don't see excellent growth in their summer business short of adding a village, performaning arts center and great event series. The access road lacks the 'vt charm' off season vacationers are looking for.

 

[mondeo]

I don't think MTB make money for the mountain though.

I used to ride in K a lot. I can count the number of riders if I want. It's nothing like skiing...

It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.

 

[deadheadskier]

As a point of comparison for Whistler vs. Snowshoe operations. When I was at the Shoe, we did 8 million and F&B. Whistler did 21. I think the rest of the operations scale fairly similarly and I'd guess Whistler was doing 120ish mil in overall revenue during that same year (2002).

 

[AdironRider]

It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.

If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes.

And the trails that Whistler has definitely cost the dough. Its unreal how well built the birms, jumps, everything is done.

Gravity Logic just put in a couple trails for Jackson as well. Just a couple runs off the vertical powerhouse that is Teewinot (400 vert ... maybe) and the cost was well over a mill. Its all in the labor costs. Once its built though, its cheap, cheap, cheap. Its a large upfront cost, but minimal maintenance afterwards.

Mt. Snow would be the the bees knees for MTB as well. One can dream.

The point about no village and the overall lameness of the access road when its not winter holds true. That place looks like a dump with no snow on the ground.

 

[abc]

It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.

Whistler more remote compare to Killington???

What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?

 

[AdironRider]

Whistlers overhead is probably a bit more than the Shoe, all those high speeds, gondis, etc cant be cheap to operate. And that Peak to Peak beast of a gondi definitely wasnt cheap.

Didnt know the Shoe did that many skier visits. Not bad at all. Good for them.

The problem with MTB is its a young mans game. At least the downhill aspect of the sport which the ski areas cater to. When you fall riding a downhill run, its really really hurts. Armor is your friend. That being said, given the consequences, I doubt many 30+ dudes with expendable cash are that into downhill biking to support that many resorts in the summer time.

But the ones that do ride, do so religiously, so while the numbers would be smaller, they'd definitely be a loyal crew if it did get built.

 

[mondeo]

If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes.

And the trails that Whistler has definitely cost the dough. Its unreal how well built the birms, jumps, everything is done.

Gravity Logic just put in a couple trails for Jackson as well. Just a couple runs off the vertical powerhouse that is Teewinot (400 vert ... maybe) and the cost was well over a mill. Its all in the labor costs.

Mt. Snow would be the the bees knees for MTB as well. One can dream.

Distance wise, not bad. Actual time, different story. Coming from the airport, you have to drive all the way through Vancouver (much more friendly to pedestrians and bikes than cars,) then it's an hour and a half if you don't get stuck behind some semi for miles. I can't imagine what that drive was like before they redid the road. I think it took us three and a half on a Sunday afternoon on the way there. Maybe it was just a bad day. Boston or Hartford to Killington is 2 and a half, mostly highway and light traffic for the rest. Albany's 2, NYC is 4-5 without an international border.

 

[deadheadskier]

Whistler more remote compare to Killington???

What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?

Vancouver is much closer to Whistler than any city is to Killington.

Killington has the population of Canada within a 6 hour drive though.

guess it depends on how you define 'remote'

 

[deadheadskier]

Whistlers overhead is probably a bit more than the Shoe, all those high speeds, gondis, etc cant be cheap to operate. And that Peak to Peak beast of a gondi definitely wasnt cheap.

Didnt know the Shoe did that many skier visits. Not bad at all. Good for them.

The problem with MTB is its a young mans game. At least the downhill aspect of the sport which the ski areas cater to. When you fall riding a downhill run, its really really hurts. Armor is your friend. That being said, given the consequences, I doubt many 30+ dudes with expendable cash are that into downhill biking to support that many resorts in the summer time.

But the ones that do ride, do so religiously, so while the numbers would be smaller, they'd definitely be a loyal crew if it did get built.

the Shoe slams

it's unlike any other Eastern area as it's a destination resort much like the West. Mid-week it's packed with Church Groups from all over the South. Weekends it's slammed with wealthy DC elites.

I was there during a real estate boom. Symphony Weekend each summer was the pinnacle. (We'd) Construct a 500 seat tent with a hard wood floor, cost 75K for the weekend to put in. F&B would host ridiculous wine parties for the weekend that barely covered the costs. But, the resort would sell 6 million in real estate, so it was worth it.

All summer long the village popped with multiple events that drew 5K plus visitors to stay. 24 hours of Snowshoe MTB race, one other big downhill, Bluegrass weekend, Wine and Jazz weekend, Chili Cookoff, a big motorcylce event, Symphony, on and on.

.....but we'd barely break even for the summer. Lift tickets was where the money was made

 

[AdironRider]

Thats cool. I can totally see that market share and the Shoe just killing it. Not everyone can blow their wad on a group trip to Jackson, Whistler or Aspen.

 

[Geoff]

If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes.

You must have a helluva fast car if you can make it from Vancouver to Whistler in an hour. You can probably make it in sub-2 from Stanley Park if there's no traffic jam on the Lions Gate Bridge now that they've straightened more of 99. It's still close to 2 1/2 from the airport since you have to traverse city streets.

I think you meant Seattle. PDX is Portland, Oregon. It's 2 1/2 hours from Seattle to Vancouver and close to 5 to get to Whistler.

 

[AdironRider]

Yeah your right. I just lump that whole area together really.

I was pretty much guessing from memory from my trip there a couple years back. We didnt come from the airport, and had a very hassle free drive I will admit. But its still pretty much right there, in relation to anything from Killington.

 

[Geoff]

Whistler more remote compare to Killington???

What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?

Killington to BOS is 2 hours 45 minutes. Lots o' flights to Europe and the west coast from there. Since Vancouver has no highways, the typical drive time for people in metro-Vancover to Whistler is probably only 15 to 20 minutes less. Those Boston drivers also pass through some pretty major population areas in Southern New Hampshire like Nausea and ManchVegas. Once you clear West Van and get on 99, there isn't much of a population base closer to Whistler. Squamish might have 15,000 and that's the only stop lights the whole way.