Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[Bostonian]

are they pushing the Beast of the East marketing campaign this year?

Yes in fact they are and to quote the home page:

"Learn to Ski and Ride for free at the BEAST! December 10, 2010"

"Winter is around the corner at the BEAST"

"Save 50% off Lift Tickets at the BEAST"

If I am not correct, please let me know, but using all green lettering to stand out on their web page citing themselves "as the Beast" looks to me like basic branding. When I think of the Beast... I think of early openings, late closings, attitude, and a product dedicated to skiing. However, just looking at the conditions report for today:

"October 27, 2010
Summer is here and the Killington Golf Course, lift-served hiking and mountain biking and the Pico Mountain Adventure Center are open for the summer season."

that is anything but beastly. No mention of blowing snow (when temps permit) or anything remotely associated with trying to get open as soon as conditions permit.

 

[WWF-VT]

Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season

Is the title of this thread. Now that Sunday River has already been the first to open and the first to close "We have now temporarily suspended operations for the midweek period as some warmer weather moves through ..." isn't it time that someone started a new thread to bitch about Killington ?

 

[jimmywilson69]

those are all good reasons and like I said I see why longtime Killington people are upset.

You are correct I can't give any analogies to places in PA that completely parallel the Killington thing.

I was just trying to get a handle on whether the lack of skiers and killington decent is a real issue or just something that is propegating on the internet.

As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter. We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.

I have skiied both Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak in Vermont. Those places are awesome too, and If I lived closer to VT and was considering a season pass I can't say that Killington would still win my money.

 

[gmcunni]

Yes in fact they are and to quote the home page:

LOL.. i actually did check their web page before i wrote that and for some reason i didn't see the beast references.. now that i go back they are all over the place.

 

[Highway Star]

Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season

Is the title of this thread. Now that Sunday River has already been the first to open and the first to close "We have now temporarily suspended operations for the midweek period as some warmer weather moves through ..." isn't it time that someone started a new thread to bitch about Killington ?

Nahhhh, this thread is perfect for that. Now we're in the post game phase, determining what went wrong.

Oh, and since Sunday River is now closed, Killington still has a chance to open before them, when they open again. :roll:

 

[Highway Star]

As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter. We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.

Killington still does pretty well with bus groups. lol.

......but it's nothing like it was during the ASC days.

 

[drjeff]

those are all good reasons and like I said I see why longtime Killington people are upset.

You are correct I can't give any analogies to places in PA that completely parallel the Killington thing.

I was just trying to get a handle on whether the lack of skiers and killington decent is a real issue or just something that is propegating on the internet.

As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter. We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.

I have skiied both Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak in Vermont. Those places are awesome too, and If I lived closer to VT and was considering a season pass I can't say that Killington would still win my money.

I think that your perspective as a couple of times a year K skier, that doesn't live within the immediate "normal" K regular region is quite refreshing in this discussion and gives an idea as to the views that the vast majority of K's clientele have about their actions the last few weeks/seasons

 

[Geoff]

I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing. Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers?

In a word... Yes.

The state of Vermont maintains a traffic counter on the Killington Access Road. You can look at the data yourself. Traffic counts are down 30%.

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/Documents/TrafResearch/Publications/pub.htm

The Vermont Department of Taxes has sales, meals, lodging, and alcohol revenue numbers for Killington. Those are also off by 30%.

http://www.state.vt.us/tax/statistics.shtml

Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model? Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

It's not simply season length. POWDR showed up and made a huge number of changes that pushed people away. Here's a partial list of what they did in their first 6 months:

* Fired most of the full time staff. Offered them "seasonal" jobs with no benefits at lower pay.
* Announced a November 15 to April 15 operating schedule.
* Announced a 3-day operations schedule for the Skyeship gondola.
* Announced a 3-day operations schedule for Killington Base Lodge and the Bear Base Lodge. Restrooms and ticket kiosks were the only services the other four midweek days.
* Doubled the price of all the kid ski school programs.
* Took over all the programs run by the Killington Ski Club (hopefuls, junior racing, junior freestyle...) and tripled prices on many of those

I'm missing many others but you get the idea. Anybody who lives in town knows lots of people who got totally screwed by POWDR. For many, your family lost health insurance. If you own a business, you're way down from the 30% drop-off. If you own property, the collapse of midweek business collapsed real estate prices since your only revenue is peak weekends.

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story. Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA. Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later. BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there. So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...

Other than the hospital in Rutland which you really can't count, Killington and surrounding businesses are the largest employer in Rutland County. A GE plant in Rutland became #2 when Killington fired all the full timers but Killington has always been the dominant economic driver in the region. When you remove 30% of the skier visits, that causes a huge amount of pain. Quite frankly, you don't have a clue if you're trying to compare a tiny commuter hill in Pennsylvania to the regional impact Killington has.

Unless you're trying to use family-oriented services on peak weekends at Snowshed and Rams Head, Killington services are fine. They're very short staffed so the place falls over when it is stressed. Holiday periods and ice storms are when you notice it the most.

Vermont skier visits have been fairly flat for the last decade at 4-ish million skier visits. Killington is the only resort in Rutland County. Those people simply went elsewhere. As a friend of mine says, "I've never heard of a business model where you intentionally set out to lose market share." That's what happened. It's great if you are on the hill on a Saturday since it's far less crowded than it used to be. If you own property in town or work/own a business in town, you have a problem with what happened.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter. We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.

I have skiied both Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak in Vermont. Those places are awesome too, and If I lived closer to VT and was considering a season pass I can't say that Killington would still win my money.

Certainly at a place as big as Killington, it's hard not to have a reasonably good time for a mid-winter week assuming decent snow. That said, I think you hit the nail on the head with your second passage. Killington is competing with those other resorts for skiers who are within a 4-5 hour drive. Given K-Mart's so-so terrain, confusing/sprawling layout to the uninitiated, and abominable customer service, they don't have anything that makes them stand out anymore as compared to the other resorts you named, all of which get more snow, have better continuous fall lines, offer a friendlier/simpler customer experience and have the same season length.

 

[AdironRider]

How many full time staff members does a ski area need?

Being placed on full time seasonal status is the nature of the business. Every ski area in the country does this.

If I was running Killington, I dont think Id have a bunch of full time salaried staff either. Thats just smart business sense.

Just because ASC was a terribly run company from a financial standpoint, doesnt mean you deserve the results of their mistakes....

 

[frankm938]

i hiked up and skied on the 16th and had a blast on the 20" of snow. saw groomers out there on the hill, saw lifts being tested and snowmaking in place. i thought for sure they would have been open a couple days later. when they didnt open, i went from pissed to confused (why wouldnt they open with all that snow, snowmaking, new walkway ect...)

then i did a little informal survey of the group of people i ski with (about 35 people, all pass holders, non-AZers) i simply asked " would you be skiing this wknd if K was open?"
and "when do you plan on starting your season?"
only 4 of the 35 said as soon as the lifts start spinning (im one of the 4)
25 of the group said either the wknd before thanksgiving, the wknd after thanksgiving or thanksgiving wknd
the rest said december or whenever it gets good.

so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed. when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing
maybe killington knows this and figures its not worth opening early when most of the customers dont care about the early season

 

[threecy]

so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed. when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing

There's something to be said about being the first one to open for the season vs. simply being the first one to open.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Thanks for the insight. As a once and done kind of visitor their operations don't really affect me. Lodges seem staffed appropriately, lifts turn, snow quality seems to be decent.

It sounds like they have attempted (but failed)to have a happy medium between the old K and their version of K. LIke it has been said they have rebranded themselves and it obviously hasn't payed off with their local/hard core clientel.

 

[gmcunni]

so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed. when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing

yup & spring too. bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.

 

[jimmywilson69]

yup & spring too. bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.

I agree and I think you are right. Which is what a "corporate" ski resort is worried about.

As I've said I am starting to understand why someone who lives nearby K or lives close enough to have a season pass would be upset with the Powder decisions.

 

[St. Bear]

yup & spring too. bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.

I think even March is pushing it. I've heard it said that ski visits start to drop after President's Weekend, and drop off a cliff after spring break, which is the first week of March in some places.

 

[skiingsnow]

No mention of blowing snow (when temps permit) or anything remotely associated with trying to get open as soon as conditions permit.

They added a bunch of new info to the site last night and it looks like the snow report and K insider got messed up.... Snow report now has the correct info up that had been up for quite a while...

 

[whitemtn27]

when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing
maybe killington knows this and figures its not worth opening early when most of the customers dont care about the early season

But remember, this isn't about how many skier visits they get early and late. It's about expanding the number of 'peak traffic' weeks mid-season.

Where would you rather go the week after Thanksgiving? The place that started getting ready 2 weeks earlier, or the place that started blowing snow 6 weeks before and has already been open for a month?

Killington spent a lot of money and years building up their 'longest season' reputation. I can't imagine they did that because they really cared how many people showed up on Oct 15th. They did it because it extended their high season a couple of weeks in each direction.

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.

 

[drjeff]

I think even March is pushing it. I've heard it said that ski visits start to drop after President's Weekend, and drop off a cliff after spring break, which is the first week of March in some places.

I'm quite sure if you asked most ski area general managers (off the record atleast ) what an "ideal" season would be from an operations standpoint for them(from a costs perspective only), it would be something like:

Big resorts: Open for Thanksgiving weekend, Weekends only between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Everyday operations between Christmas and the end of Presidents week. Weekends only from the end of Presidents week until the weekend that falls closest to St. Patricks Day (or Easter if Easter is in the 1st week of April), and thats it.

Small resorts: Open for Christmas week. If you don't have night skiing, then weekends only until Presidents week. If you have night skiing, then midweek operations only from say 3PM until 9-10PM in January through Presidents week. Maybe operate weekends only through St Patricks day

 

[gmcunni]

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.

lets be fair. they do open early and close late.. just not first and last. their "brand" hasn't evaporated (yet), people still consider K one of the big players in NE, i think in reality they are.