Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[AdironRider]

650k skier visits is still a ton of people.

JHole's best season ever is only like 450k.

 

[mondeo]

then i did a little informal survey of the group of people i ski with (about 35 people, all pass holders, non-AZers) i simply asked " would you be skiing this wknd if K was open?"
and "when do you plan on starting your season?"
only 4 of the 35 said as soon as the lifts start spinning (im one of the 4)
25 of the group said either the wknd before thanksgiving, the wknd after thanksgiving or thanksgiving wknd
the rest said december or whenever it gets good.

I know our house lease only runs from November 1 to April 30, so that's a definate consideration, given that most people don't own a house on the mountain. Had they been open last weekend (and next) it would've been day trips, not the full weekend, whereas in November I'll be up full weekends even if the skiing's boring. My house will probably be a bit slow until December, it pretty much died early April last year. Still, when they're the only resort open with minimal trails, you don't need that large a percentage of skiers to fill the place. If you can get a small percentage of all the skiers in the Northeast, that's good enough.

But it seems like there were at least 10 people that I was skiing with last year for opening weekend, exactly who is fuzzy (but it's probably out of about 50, which includes your entire 35.) I'm betting more than 4 will actually show up as soon as they open and houses have started.

 

[millerm277]

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.

To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.

I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.

 

[mondeo]

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.

It's an hour closer than its competition to anyone in Connecticut, NYC, NJ, PA, etc., with the exception of Whiteface, which it beats handily with snowfall. That's a big difference if you go every week. No village, but some like that. Access road is pretty good. Layout isn't chaotic to season pass holders.

It's the closest good enough mountain, and that counts for a lot.

 

[gmcunni]

It's an hour closer than its competition to anyone in Connecticut, NYC, NJ, PA, etc.,. . . .

It's the closest good enough mountain, and that counts for a lot.

disagree... you say nothing south of K is competition and not in the "good enough" category?

 

[Geoff]

How many full time staff members does a ski area need?

Being placed on full time seasonal status is the nature of the business. Every ski area in the country does this.

If I was running Killington, I dont think Id have a bunch of full time salaried staff either. Thats just smart business sense.

Just because ASC was a terribly run company from a financial standpoint, doesnt mean you deserve the results of their mistakes....

Preston Smith always cited the fairly large number of full time employees at Killington as a matter of personal pride and obligation. Does your employer give you health insurance as a benefit? Would you think differently of them if they fired you and offered you a lower paying job with no benefits? From a financial standpoint, they'd make more money by paying you less and chopping off all your benefits.

 

[mondeo]

disagree... you say nothing south of K is competition and not in the "good enough" category?

For me? Yes. It's the closest with good variety of terrain, natural snowfall, consistency, apres offerings. The primary competition is Sugarbush and Stowe, not Mt. Snow and Stratton. For the stuff I like to ski, I'd be bored to death with those places after a full season skiing there every weekend.

 

[Geoff]

Killington spent a lot of money and years building up their 'longest season' reputation. I can't imagine they did that because they really cared how many people showed up on Oct 15th. They did it because it extended their high season a couple of weeks in each direction.

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.

Bingo!

It's all about extending the number of weekends when the parking lots are full. That's why the Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge the 2nd weekend in April was such a big deal. You throw a huge party that fills the whole resort when most ski areas are already shutting down for the season. When Preston Smith was marketing the place like crazy, he filled the lots from pre-Thanksgiving to early May.

Killington's midwinter product is low-average at best. If you do the November 15th to April 15th operating schedule that POWDR and Chris Nyberg implemented their first year owning Killington, you've killed off the value proposition for buying a season pass. Layer on the jacked up kid program prices and you end up pushing the families to Okemo, the Bostonians to Sunday River, and a big chunk of your advanced skier base farther north in Vermont. What remains are a bunch of rather pissed off vacation home owners who just watched their property prices collapse as skier visits dropped 30%. The midweek condo occupancy rates at Killington are close to 0%. A decade ago, things were pretty full midweek at peak season. POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.

 

[WWF-VT]

A decade ago, things were pretty full midweek at peak season. POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.

I don't care where you are buying - it's foolish to own a vacation home and make any assumption that rental income is going to pay for most of it. If a high percentage of Killington buyers purchased under that premise then I have no sympathy for them.

 

[threecy]

POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.

I'm not sure how you can make that statement with no mention of ASC.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I'm not disuputing your numbers Geoff, I'm just bringing this up for discussion sakes Sorry if it has been hashed out previously here at AZ.

Could part of their decline in numbers be because the industry as a whole is down. I have no fact in this, but I think in roughly the same time period the industry took a hit as a whole.

Obviously 30% is alot, and I don't think everywhere is down 30%. Has Sugarbush, Stowe, and other NH and ME areas seen an X% increase that can directly correlated to killington skiers that have moved on?

 

[Smellytele]

To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.

I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.

I personally hate having to move pod to pod with limited options at each pod. Spend too much time moving place to place then getting back takes more time.

 

[frankm938]

I know our house lease only runs from November 1 to April 30, so that's a definate consideration, given that most people don't own a house on the mountain. Had they been open last weekend (and next) it would've been day trips, not the full weekend, whereas in November I'll be up full weekends even if the skiing's boring. My house will probably be a bit slow until December, it pretty much died early April last year. Still, when they're the only resort open with minimal trails, you don't need that large a percentage of skiers to fill the place. If you can get a small percentage of all the skiers in the Northeast, that's good enough.

But it seems like there were at least 10 people that I was skiing with last year for opening weekend, exactly who is fuzzy (but it's probably out of about 50, which includes your entire 35.) I'm betting more than 4 will actually show up as soon as they open and houses have started.

i bet there were 10 last year opening day, but that wasnt in october last year.

 

[drjeff]

I personally hate having to move pod to pod with limited options at each pod. Spend too much time moving place to place then getting back takes more time.

The only real plus to pod to pod terrain movement is that on some days that can allow you to often get from say a colder, windier, scratchier terrain pod to a pod where the weather conditions may be more comfortable and the snow surface better. A big plus in spring bump season especially when you can follow the sun around the mountain to where it has softened things up properly.

K is a classic example of that, with AM spring bumps at Bear and then when Bear has mushed up too much, you make your way over towards the Canyon pod

 

[gmcunni]

For me? Yes.

that's fair. for other demographics i suspect Killington has plenty of competition to the south.

 

[frankm938]

To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.

I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.

i agree, not liking how the mtn is run is one thing, but saying it doesnt have good terrain makes me think people need to explore the place a little more

 

[bigbob]

Speaking of the "Proposed Village", I think moves on their part such as this will do nothing to help sway the "Locals" who are on these planning boards to approve what they want to build, sell, and make a profit on.

 

[AdironRider]

Preston Smith always cited the fairly large number of full time employees at Killington as a matter of personal pride and obligation. Does your employer give you health insurance as a benefit? Would you think differently of them if they fired you and offered you a lower paying job with no benefits? From a financial standpoint, they'd make more money by paying you less and chopping off all your benefits.

Yeah I would be pissed, because I work in a year round resort as the restaurant manager. They NEED me to be there year round. Same applies to you Im sure. Unless you work at a ski area with next to no summer activities, your comparison does not apply.

Killington is not really a year round area (yes they have mtn biking etc, but lets be real here, they can run on about 1/10th the staff in the summertime. So what exactly do they need a bunch of year round staff for?

So no, I dont think they should hire a bunch of year round people with benefits just because it feels good.

 

[jerryg]

So is Killington opening this weekend? And if so, will it be for the season? We know that SR won't start fulltime operations till November, it's just what they do. I would suspect that SR will open again this weekend, close again next midweek, and then reopen for good the following weekend. This would be consistent with last year. There aren't any/many midweek skiers this early and why lose money on operating lifts for a few people when they've already gotten the PR pop?

SR got a mention down here at Disney when Loveland opened. The Orlando news station pointed out that Loveland was the first area in the country to open fulltime fie the season, but that SR had been the first to open with part time operations. They had the segment due to the unseasonably high temps down here.

 

[Puck it]

So is Killington opening this weekend? And if so, will it be for the season? We know that SR won't start fulltime operations till November, it's just what they do. I would suspect that SR will open again this weekend, close again next midweek, and then reopen for good the following weekend. This would be consistent with last year. There aren't any/many midweek skiers this early and why lose money on operating lifts for a few people when they've already gotten the PR pop?

SR got a mention down here at Disney when Loveland opened. The Orlando news station pointed out that Loveland was the first area in the country to open fulltime fie the season, but that SR had been the first to open with part time operations. They had the segment due to the unseasonably high temps down here.

Not a chance they open this weekend. Too much loss and they want to open with GN to Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall. I could eat my words though. Let's hope.