KILLINGTON: The 2006 AlpineZone Ski Area Challenge

[thetrailboss]

Some great questions but here goes on the Pico topic:

Tom, my fiancee and I are going to be Killington skiers next season. We plan on spending a good deal of time at Pico because of the crowds, terrain variety, and overall atmosphere. The last time I was there was 2000-2001 and things were looking shopworn--lodges and lifts were looking rough. I have not been back there since, but I have heard that Pico is being woefully neglected. In talking with another local, I learned that Pico saw little if any snowmaking last season and that the facilities had not been maintained. Pico is a great ski area and, on its own, would be very competitive thanks to its 1,967 vert, views, lift configuration, terrain variety, etc. What are you planning on doing there this season? What improvements have been made? Are you committed to running Pico as a ski area rather than a "sideshow" to Killington? Though I understand that you will probably cite declining skier days at Pico, I think that it is part of a vicious cycle--ignore Pico and skiers and riders ignore it. The biggest reason why we went with ASC Passes was Pico. I hope that you consider focusing more energy into Pico.

 

[2knees]

this is really more of a comment than a question but here it goes. My last trip up there this past season was unfortunately sunshine daydream weekend. Much of the mtn was closed for obvious reasons but the crowds were expectedly large. Superstar had been groomed out for the most part except for the lower 1/3. Unfortunately, you also had chosen to close the skiers left for a mogul comp creating a nasty nasty bottleneck down the lower part. I saw at least 3 collisions and i myself almost got knocked down once and got totally cut off a number of times elimaniting the ability to ski the only decent line with any sort of consistency. When you made the decision to hold the comp that day, did you realize what a traffic jam and potentially hazardous situation that created? I bailed after only 6 or so runs because i value life and limb. Its not that i'm out of control, its every fledgling bump skiers attracted to the groomed out middle section who has no choice but to traverse across the bottom in limited space. Additionally, why groom superstar so much in the spring anyway. I realize it may become neccesary at times, but in years past i dont recall seeing it so flat. spring is for bumps in my opinion and i believe in many others eyes too. killington seems to have lost sight of that fact.

thank you for your time.
Pat

 

[Greg]

Does Killington management actively follow the discussions over at KillingtonZone.com? Has a suggestion or comment made on an online forum ever seriously been considered or implemented?

 

[SkiDork]

Does Killington management actively follow the discussions over at KillingtonZone.com? Has a suggestion or comment made on an online forum ever seriously been considered or implemented?

Good one Greg. They couldn't handle the BS back a few years ago and decided to can it. But for some reason Sunday River still has theirs. Whats the diff?

 

[SkiDog]

Just gotta say, a ton of good questions here!

So far im with GEOFF...his questions were right on...I also am a K property owner since 98 and have been visiting MUCH longer...all his points are DEAD ON and hope they are addressed directly..

M

 

[Bubbartzky]

Does Killington management actively follow the discussions over at KillingtonZone.com? Has a suggestion or comment made on an online forum ever seriously been considered or implemented?

The answer is no, although there are Killington people who do read the board.

 

[Geoff]

maybe we should take this discussion to another thread but sorry to disagree, the last thing k needs is more hsq's.

I think this is pretty much the universal opinion.

My suggestion box entry:

If I were operating the mountain, I'd actually reduce uphill capacity to improve the product. That way, people will actually pay the $70+ walk-up day ticket price. I'd cut the gondolas back to 6 people. I'd yank the Fiddle quad out completely.

The only new lift I'd install is a fixed-grip lift from somewhere near where the old K double midstation used to be to K peak to offer a good fall & spring product. I'd probably use one of those ancient Snowshed doubles for this purpose. In conjunction with that project, I'd revamp the K Peak lodge to offer a premium lunch product. I'd also build a day lodge at the bottom of Needles Eye.

Your skier yield must be awful compared to a western destination resort or even a Stratton or Stowe. With the cheap passes and all the brown baggers avoiding your lousy food, it can't be much better than $60 per skier visit.

 

[thetrailboss]

I think this is pretty much the universal opinion.

My suggestion box entry:

If I were operating the mountain, I'd actually reduce uphill capacity to improve the product. That way, people will actually pay the $70+ walk-up day ticket price. I'd cut the gondolas back to 6 people. I'd yank the Fiddle quad out completely.

The only new lift I'd install is a fixed-grip lift from somewhere near where the old K double midstation used to be to K peak to offer a good fall & spring product. I'd probably use one of those ancient Snowshed doubles for this purpose. In conjunction with that project, I'd revamp the K Peak lodge to offer a premium lunch product. I'd also build a day lodge at the bottom of Needles Eye.

Your skier yield must be awful compared to a western destination resort or even a Stratton or Stowe. With the cheap passes and all the brown baggers avoiding your lousy food, it can't be much better than $60 per skier visit.

So when are you planning on buying K-Mart and implementing those suggestions? :wink: Some good ideas.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I think this is pretty much the universal opinion.

My suggestion box entry:

If I were operating the mountain, I'd actually reduce uphill capacity to improve the product. That way, people will actually pay the $70+ walk-up day ticket price. I'd cut the gondolas back to 6 people. I'd yank the Fiddle quad out completely.

The only new lift I'd install is a fixed-grip lift from somewhere near where the old K double midstation used to be to K peak to offer a good fall & spring product. I'd probably use one of those ancient Snowshed doubles for this purpose. In conjunction with that project, I'd revamp the K Peak lodge to offer a premium lunch product. I'd also build a day lodge at the bottom of Needles Eye.

Obviously the food is a huge issue. It's overpriced crap - there's no other way to describe it. I agree regarding a small day lodge at the base of Needles Eye, though it would be difficult to service and support in that location, no?

Fiddle Quad could be ripped out tomorrow and no one would notice. The ultimate answer to the overcapacity issue isn't necessarily to rip out more lifts. Rather it's to add more terrain to spread out the people and to utilize Pico more intensively. Since expansion southward into Parker's Gore is out of the question, clearly the interconnect is the answer to both of those questions. But I don't see that happening for at least another 5 years as the long-awaited village takes shape.

 

[BeanoNYC]

Thanks for taking our questions Tom.

(sorry if these questions were asked already as I only had the time to skim before posting)

1) Word on the street is that ASC bought The Wobbly Barn for future use as a parking lot if condos get built at K1. Is there any truth to this? I'd hate to have to shuttle from the access road to get to the Gondola.

2) What was management's reaction to "losing" to Bretton Woods on season length this year? Will there be a considerable effort to regain the title next season?

3) How come Killington didn't keep Outer Limits open instead of Superstar? It seemed to have a much better base this year.

4) Any plans on adding more vegetarian dining options?

 

[Razor]

Fwiw

Many of my ideas have already been posted. Re. food, the thought of eating in one of the lodges has never entered my mind. Maybe a hot chocolate, but why bother with all the other costs associated with a day on the slopes. Save your money for beer. I'd love to see some kind of connector from Superstar over to the K-1. That schlepp is a killer. Re. Snowdon: I'd like to see the poma open much more. We ski a lot of weekdays when the poma is closed, and it's a pain in the ass to ride the Snowdon chairs when it's freezing out. I'd much rather ride the K-1 and ski down to the poma. Sure, you might not get as many runs, but you'll still get to all the trails and stay a helluva lot warmer. We ski at Sunday River as much as K, and the vibe is much better there than at K. For some reason SR seems to be able to overcome the "ASC disease" better than K.

 

[thetrailboss]

Good questions, Razor. Cross over from Superstar to K-1 = Ovation. As for SR, it is a newer resort than K-Mart and the infrastructure isn't as worn.

 

[awf170]

How do you plan to make your mountain ever more mcmountainany?

 

[Geoff]

Good questions, Razor. Cross over from Superstar to K-1 = Ovation. As for SR, it is a newer resort than K-Mart and the infrastructure isn't as worn.

Killington never blew snow on Ovation last winter. With rain every Thurdsay, they were kind of occupied resurfacing other things. I wish they had blown Ovation but a company with $600 million in debt has to stick to their budget as much as possible. At least ASC fixed the perpetual snowmaking water shortage problem so the limiting factor is money.

Before they put in that water slide and paved & roped off what used the be the Killington double chair liftline with a summer skateboard park, you used to be able to cut from Superstar over to the K1 without the 200 yard skate in front of the base lodge. You could also get from Ovation back to the Superstar lift without doing the 200 yard skate. A couple of well thought through "improvements".

Sunday River has a more laid-back vibe because it only has Bostonians.... Not Bostonians AND New Yorkers. It also gets significantly less skier visits and has rationally laid out trail pods. Much of the mess at Killington is caused by the way the resort evolved over the years. Tons of trail intersections and choke points that don't happen at Sunday River. If you could put all the first growth trees back on Killington and re-cut the trails as rational trail pods, most of the problems would go away. The only real travesty at Sunday River is White Heat which was cut to compete with Outer Limits. I think it's pretty unanimous that narrower, twisty trails are what works in New England.

 

[Phildozer]

4. It is often said that "you get what you pay for" and Jack Welch, former chair of GE, has said that if you look at the reward system in any company you'll see what drives the decisions. On the assumption that Killington means what it says about quality and customer service, is the senior management reward system properly aligned with these goals?

Wow, great question!

 

[SkiDork]

I think this is pretty much the universal opinion.

My suggestion box entry:

If I were operating the mountain, I'd actually reduce uphill capacity to improve the product. That way, people will actually pay the $70+ walk-up day ticket price. I'd cut the gondolas back to 6 people. I'd yank the Fiddle quad out completely.

The only new lift I'd install is a fixed-grip lift from somewhere near where the old K double midstation used to be to K peak to offer a good fall & spring product. I'd probably use one of those ancient Snowshed doubles for this purpose. In conjunction with that project, I'd revamp the K Peak lodge to offer a premium lunch product. I'd also build a day lodge at the bottom of Needles Eye.

Your skier yield must be awful compared to a western destination resort or even a Stratton or Stowe. With the cheap passes and all the brown baggers avoiding your lousy food, it can't be much better than $60 per skier visit.

This is Geoff's most talked about wishes - another way to get to K peak without having to take the K1...

Maybe even a T-bar that goes from the top of the canyon quad straight up, right next to Catwalk?

 

[thebigo]

First I want to thank you for taking our questions and I also want to thank you guys for putting in the effort to get open the last weekend of October. That was a great weekend and personally I would prefer an epic weekend in October to one more week on Superstar in May.

Now a few questions:

It seems to me that Pico is a really underused resource. The majority of complaints on this thread and in general regarding killington are of overcrowding at the trail junctions and this is especially difficult for familes. My question is have you ever considered adding Pico to the trail map. Im not talking about the interconnect, but just an inset the way your sister mountain Mount Snow used to include Haystack on their trail map. The majority of people I talk to at Killington don't even know Pico is an option. I also think this could make Pico more viable without ruining its charm.

This past season there were rumors of heavier enforcement of the trail poaching. As someone who tends to make their own trail down the hill and does it responsibly why should I have to worry about my pass getting pulled? Why not have trails that are open at the skiiers risk with the understanding that if something happens you are on your own.

Could you also let us know with what the official trail poaching policy is regarding season passes?

I truly miss the old sunrise area. My question is have you guys ever considered running a shuttle van from the base of the old sunrise back to the skyeship base. Maybe just a couple saturdays a year after a dump? There was some decent terrain down there and I think this could give Killington some lift served OOB skiing. Along the lines of Cannon/Mitt.

Finally have you ever considered RFID rather than the scanning of season passes. The price of RFID has really come down in recent years and personally I would be willing to chip in a few extra bucks for my pass if it meant not having to be scanned everytime.



Edited for spelling

 

[Jonni]

In the past I have heard rumblings that there is a proposed HSQ to be installed from the High Ridge Condominiums to the top of Snowshed. What is the progress for this possible project and what is the likelihood that we may see another trail pod in that general vacinity?

 

[pizza]

In the past I have heard rumblings that there is a proposed HSQ to be installed from the High Ridge Condominiums to the top of Snowshed. What is the progress for this possible project and what is the likelihood that we may see another trail pod in that general vacinity?

A HSQ to the top of snowshed??
that seems strange because there would only be a couple hundred feet (max) of vertical..

 

[thebigo]

ive never heard anything about a high speed there, a lifty told me that they were planning on installing a fixed grip up one of the condo trails in the next couple years, i cant remember the trail name but its the longest of the condo trails, the one closest to bear