KILLINGTON: The 2006 AlpineZone Ski Area Challenge

[Greg]

Why did this reply take four months?

Is he just getting around to reading the questions?

Greg did he not tell you in the past that he distributed the questions to the various depatments? That would imply that he read the 'negative comments' previously.

Is it possible that he was waiting for the final day of the all for one pass sales?

What avenue did he request that his loyal and paying customers use to submit 'specific questions'. Is there an email address or phone number?

I'm not going to divulge specifics of our personal conversation, but I did ask why it took this long to deny participating. I do not have an answer there. Please realize that I did voice my opinion that this was not the right move from a PR standpoint.

Tom's Email address is commonly listed in the "The Drift" newsletter so I assume it's okay to post here:

thorrocks@killington.com

 

[thebigo]

I think at this point it is not ASC but rather Killington management.

Sunday River and Sugarloaf both provided timely and intelligent answers. Sunday River interacts with their customers on their message board and takes their ideas and suggestions seriously. Both Sunday River and Sugarloaf have changed their parks this year and cut new trails.

Take a look at the Sunday River Message board many of the posts are signifiganlty more negative than the questions posed to Killington.

 

[Bubbartzky]

awilson@killington.com

Allen is President of the resort.

 

[Vortex]

I am an active poster on the SR board.

They listened about the parks and bantered about the use of Barker lodge.
( Ak) Alex, over there has spoken out on several occoacaions and let the gang have it or in a few instances(ie the park) he started a what improvemens do you suggest thread. I have not give up here, Hopefully we can still get some back and forth.

 

[shwilly]

Way to create a good "buzz" among fanatical skiers a month before the season begins. Well played!

Reading back over the questions, they weren't even that negative. Most of the harshest criticisms came from long-time passholders and property owners who obviously love the mountain and want the experience to be as good as possible.

What a cop-out...

 

[Greg]

awilson@killington.com

Allen is President of the resort.

Let me just jump in here and say please do not start Emailing Killington management unless you can present your comments and opinions in a civil and mature way. The ski area challenge is meant to be a positive experience for both AZ members and the resort participants. There's no need to put further strain on the situation. Please keep your comments honest, yet productive. High road, folks.

 

[2knees]

I spoke with Tom today and he has chosen not to participate. He does not feel this is an appropriate forum to respond to these types of questions and some of the associated negative comments. He welcomed any specific questions which should be sent to him directly.

a perfect example of how not to win friends and influence neighbors.

maybe they just see themselves as the beast of the east still and no matter how much they thumb their noses, people will still shell out the bucks to ski there. whatever, its still ridiculous to say this isnt the proper forum to answer the questions. He couldve said that when the questions were submitted. nothing has changed. and heck, if this place isnt civil enough, good luck finding something that is the proper channel.

 

[Bubbartzky]

Let me just jump in here and say please do not start Emailing Killington management unless you can present your comments and opinions in a civil and mature way. The ski area challenge is meant to be a positive experience for both AZ members and the resort participants. There's no need to put further strain on the situation. Please keep your comments honest, yet productive. High road, folks.

Agree wholeheartedly!

 

[Tin Woodsman]

a perfect example of how not to win friends and influence neighbors.

maybe they just see themselves as the beast of the east still and no matter how much they thumb their noses, people will still shell out the bucks to ski there. whatever, its still ridiculous to say this isnt the proper forum to answer the questions. He couldve said that when the questions were submitted. nothing has changed. and heck, if this place isnt civil enough, good luck finding something that is the proper channel.

Beast of the East? Seeing as how they've shortened their season by two full months (little by little, so maybe no one notices) and are now regularly beaten to the punch by such snowbelt resorts as Bretton Woods and Woodbury Ski and Racquet, they are more aptly known as "Bust of the East".

Such weak sauce out of these dopes.

 

[Geoff]

Let me just jump in here and say please do not start Emailing Killington management unless you can present your comments and opinions in a civil and mature way. The ski area challenge is meant to be a positive experience for both AZ members and the resort participants. There's no need to put further strain on the situation. Please keep your comments honest, yet productive. High road, folks.

The Killington situation is strained regardless of what happens on internet message boards. The resort has gone through one debacle after another.

* Killington reported a 19.3% drop in skier visits in a year where the state had a 6% drop.
* Centex just pulled out as developer for their base village complex delaying it yet again
* Killington lost control of the land for their base village 18 months ago when their parent company defaulted on some huge loans. Killington Ltd now has a minority 25% interest in the land.
* The inexpensive season pass deal has made it difficult to get people to work on weekends in exchange for season passes. This has caused a service fall-off ripple in most aspects of the resort.
* Corporate-mandated austerity budgets have demoralized Killington employees. The ski patrol went union.
* The Killington brand with marketing money spent to be first to open, last to close, and to blow snow anywhere you can drag a hose has been destroyed. Lowly Okemo now has the reputation for snowmaking excellence.

If I were managing the resort, I'd be worried about my job. Answering tough questions from the internet is unimportant compared to answering tougher questions from corporate HQ in Utah.

 

[SkiDork]

Most folks can guess the situation over there - the company is in such dire financial straights, they prolly are all totally gun-shy about any sort of public statement for fear of losing their job. Sort of like working for George Steinbrenner... although these days George doesn't seem to fire people like he used to...


Just a thought...

 

[SkiDork]

Geoff pretty much summed it up... Like he usually does....

 

[2knees]

Beast of the East? Seeing as how they've shortened their season by two full months (little by little, so maybe no one notices) and are now regularly beaten to the punch by such snowbelt resorts as Bretton Woods and Woodbury Ski and Racquet, they are more aptly known as "Bust of the East".

Such weak sauce out of these dopes.

my post shouldve been written as such.

Maybe they STILL see themselves as the beast of the east.

 

[SkiDork]

they're "torn between 2 lovers" as the song goes.. The old Killington reputation, and the reality of things...

 

[Bubbartzky]

* Killington reported a 19.3% drop in skier visits in a year where the state had a 6% drop.

The latest round of spin has them saying that they changed their methodology on how they count season passes and these were company reported numbers using the new method. They went back and estimated what they would have been using the old method and they only dropped about 5 - 6%, less of a drop than the region overall. So.....if I interpret this correctly, they went to a new method which is more accurate and only dropped 5 - 6% from what they would have been last year using the same method, which also means that previously reported numbers for past years were nowhere near as high as they said they were.

 

[andyzee]

Let me just jump in here and say please do not start Emailing Killington management unless you can present your comments and opinions in a civil and mature way. The ski area challenge is meant to be a positive experience for both AZ members and the resort participants. There's no need to put further strain on the situation. Please keep your comments honest, yet productive. High road, folks.

I also agree 100%, but instead of emailing Killington Management, I would see about emailing ASC management.

 

[thetrailboss]

And here are the questions that went out to Killington:

1. BobR: I asked last year about the plan for season opening and closing. I got the explanation that Mid November until Mid May was the plan. Is that still the case? Can Bear be open later if that is where the late Season snow is made? What was management's reaction to having to close before Bretton Woods this year? Will there be a considerable effort to regain the title of longest season next year with an earlier opening and later closing as was the Killington Norm?

2. Geoff: I have been a Killington Passholder since 1981 and a property owner since 1993. I am really concerned about the food at your resort. I am so concerned that I will not spend another dime. Holding food costs to thirty-percent of the sale price just doesn't work. You end up with situations like the Bear Bar where $10 now buys you a stale roll with a single slice of meat and a single slice of cheese on it. The Chinese and Sushi at Mahogany Ridge is now too expensive. What can you do to improve quality of the food for the price? Any plans on adding more vegetarian dining options?

3. Andyzee: This past season there appeared to be a lot of problems with lifts. If I had more than a handful of non stop rides up either of the Snowdon lifts, that was a lot. The North Ridge Triple had many problems throughout the season and at the end of the season I was stuck on the Superstar quad for at least 20 minutes on a day where it was the only lift left and it was down for most of the day. Why all the lift problems? Is anything being done in the off season to resolve this? I also think that you really need to put your best trained lift attendants on the high-traffic fixed-grip lifts. It is very easy to load a high speed quad or an 8-seater gondola while, say, the Snowdon Quad requires a skilled operator who can communicate with skiers and riders. Can you pass the suggestion to Mountain Ops?

4. Tyrolean_skier: I am a bond pass holder and a property owner since 1999. Considering that Steamboat and the Canyons are seeing some work this summer, I would like to know where we will see improvements and capital investment this coming year at Killington. Any more restrooms being redone? Any lift work slated for this season (either replacement, addition of new lifts, repair of lifts, etc.)? Some key areas that we are interested in include the Pico Interconnect, Snowdon, the Skye Peak Quad, and a rumored lift planned for the High Ridge Condos. Any terrain expansions or at least the addition of some new Fusion zones? And if money is short, have you considered offering backcountry options in the old Northeast Passage area serviced by a shuttle van to Skyeship on key weekends? It might be a cheap way to add more terrain and to help cater to another crowd. Thanks.

5. Geoff: I guess you did what you could with snowmaking given your budget constraints. I don't quite understand the economics of blowing all that snow on Outer Limits only to shut Bear after the second weekend in April. If you'd put down more base on the Cascade Runout, you could have had much of the mountain open until late April even in this bad winter. How come you didn't keep Outer Limits open instead of Superstar? What about snowmaking in other areas such as the Skyeship Base Area (Pipe Dream and Valley Plunge)? Other areas were good. There was some fabulous skiing on Devil's Fiddle last season thanks to very aggressive snowmaking on that trail. On the other hand, the Old Superstar and Ovation (which is very important for skiers to use to get to K-1 from Superstar) were largely overlooked. Killington was once the king of snowmaking. What can we expect for snowmaking this season?

6. Talisman: What demographic does Killington see as its core market and what is the plan to optimize marketing to this demographic? Again, a follow up to last year’s question, have you considered the problems that the current season pass pricing policy present when considering your desire to sell high-end housing in the future? The cheaper passes are leading to more crowds, which is not what those on the upper end of the market want. I don't see how you can sell upmarket trophy homes when your facility is the downmarket Beast of the East.

7. Thebigo: Two questions about season passes. First, this past season there were rumors of heavier enforcement of the trail poaching. As someone who tends to make their own trail down the hill and does it responsibly, should I have to worry about my pass getting pulled? Why not have trails and areas that are open at the skiers risk with the understanding that if something happens you are on your own? Could you also let us know with what the official trail poaching policy is regarding season passes? Also, have you considered RFID rather than the scanning of season passes to save time? The price of RFID has really come down in recent years and personally I would be willing to chip in a few extra bucks for my pass if it meant not having to be scanned everytime.

8. Geoff: Trail closings for events has picked up significantly in recent years leading to some bad bottlenecks. When you have trails closed for races and other events, could you post notices at the bottom and top of all the lifts and also place a notation in the snowreports? For example, when there's a race on Skyelark, I want to know about it so I can avoid Bittersweet when most of the people getting off the Superstar and K1 lifts are going that way. Another problem that happened was that skiers and riders would go part-way down Highline only to hit a rope that pushed us down the rock dance to the Mouse Trap mayhem. There were also problems with Superstar in April (too narrow an opening for too many skiers). Bear Mountain is also dangerous because the current layout creates a bottleneck on Wildfire and Anti-Venom to Lower Bear Claw. What can Mountain Ops do to alleviate these problem areas?

9. Bubbartzky: Killington senior management talks up the need to improve quality and improve customer service, from the mountain to the lodging operations. Despite what I hear, it appears that little actually changes - when faced with a decision where the choice is spending money or allowing quality/customer service to suffer, the choice is more often than not made to not spend the money. What is Killington doing to improve quality that actually costs real money? (I would exclude snowmaking from this question, although I recognize that snow quality is the first priority. I would also compliment Killington on its snowmaking last season-you guys did a great job in resurfacing after bad weather and in keeping conditions reasonable. My question is related to the rest of the skier/rider/customer/lodging etc. experience.) . It is often said that "you get what you pay for" and Jack Welch, former chair of GE, has said that if you look at the reward system in any company you'll see what drives the decisions. On the assumption that Killington means what it says about quality and customer service, is the senior management reward system properly aligned with these goals?

10. Thetrailboss: Tom, my fiancée and I are going to be Killington skiers next season. We plan on spending a good deal of time at Pico because of the crowds, terrain variety, and overall atmosphere. I skied there in 2000-2001 and the lodges and lifts were looking shopworn. In talking with another local, I learned that Pico saw little if any snowmaking last season and that the facilities had not been maintained. Pico is a great ski area and, on its own, would be very competitive thanks to its 1,967 vert, views, lift configuration, terrain variety, etc. What are you planning on doing there this season? What improvements have been made? Anything being done with the snowmaking? Are you committed to running Pico as a ski area rather than a "sideshow" to Killington until the interconnect is completed? What is the status of the interconnect? How about putting it back on the Killington maps? Though I understand that you will probably cite declining skier days at Pico, I think that it is part of a vicious cycle—when no attention is given to Pico and skiers and riders don’t come. The biggest reason why we went with ASC Passes was Pico. I hope that you consider focusing more energy into Pico because it is a great mountain that locals love and will ski if they get the chance. Thanks!

 

[Newpylong]

Yup... I think it is more Killington itself going down the tubes. Their other mountains like the Loaf the River at least offer timely and honest answers. lastly, they haven't done thing after thing to piss off their loyal customers for the last 10 years.... sad.

 

[andyzee]

Hey, those were some tough questions. By not answering them I think Killington spoke very loudly.

 

[thebigo]

Those are loaded questions and you guys may have tried a little too hard to get everybody in. The questions have certainly come a long way from 'What is the status of the interconnect?' However even if you want to duck the questions, you respond with corporate speak in a timely manner.

If I treated my customers in this manner I would have been fired.

It is really more than just the alpinezone questions. As a group we are an extremely small percentage of their customers.

The more important message they send is that they simply dont care about us. Personally, my GF and I are looking to purchase a ski condo in the next couple years. To me the 'package' offered by Killington of accessability, length of season, snowmaking, terrain, an affordable pass and non-skiing activities is unmatched in new england. However I cannot see investing in a mountain where the owners simply dont care about their customers. Why would I want to deal with this type of reaction in the future when I can go to sugarbush, sunday river, sugarloaf, jay, etc. instead. Sure they are all further, have shorter seasons, less activities and more expensive passes but why should I invest in a mountain that the owners wont invest in and the operators do not care about.