Killingtons Like??

[Tin Woodsman]

K-Mart has a lot to work with. It is blessed with high elevation, one of the best annual snowfalls in the East, and of course a huge amount of lift-accessible terrain. Thankfully, no mgmt team has the ability to screw that up, so those are still definitely positives for the place. If you know you're way around, you can find the roads less travelled, both on and off trail, and have a hell of a time all day long.

That said, mgmt over the years, even before ASC, has done a number of things that have eroded the quality of the skiing experience. Trail design is a mess with so many soulless boulevards and intersections. The food is uniformly lousy and overpriced. The season seems to get shorter and shorter. The icing on the cake is that the vibe at the place sucks. Customer service is inconsistent and inept and the attitude you get from many patrons is a buzzkill.

In short, there's nothing from a skiing perspective that I can get at K that I can't get at a place like SB or Stowe, whereas those latter two don't bring with them most of the problems that are now endemic to K-Mart.

 

[JimG.]

That said, mgmt over the years, even before ASC, has done a number of things that have eroded the quality of the skiing experience. Trail design is a mess with so many soulless boulevards and intersections. The food is uniformly lousy and overpriced. The season seems to get shorter and shorter. The icing on the cake is that the vibe at the place sucks. Customer service is inconsistent and inept and the attitude you get from many patrons is a buzzkill.

These are observations that I would agree with. But they are not specific to Killington alone. In fact, these shortcomings are the things I find myself noticing at more and more ski areas. I think MRG is so loved because it does not have these issues; some resorts like Sugarbush are making concerted efforts to reverse these types of problems.

When you make these types of comparisons, I think you can foresee the ski areas that will be profitable and those that will not be. Too often, businesses that are failing cut back on the very things that would help them recover like customer service, affordable and palatable food service, and a positive vibe. Those things seem to disappear when profit runs short. A vicious cycle ensues.

I think these are the issues that Killington is grappling with and they seem to be losing the battle. But that does not mean they are defeated...yet.

 

[Bubbartzky]

...When you make these types of comparisons, I think you can foresee the ski areas that will be profitable and those that will not be. Too often, businesses that are failing cut back on the very things that would help them recover like customer service, affordable and palatable food service, and a positive vibe. Those things seem to disappear when profit runs short. A vicious cycle ensues.

I think these are the issues that Killington is grappling with and they seem to be losing the battle. But that does not mean they are defeated...yet.

A couple of old maxims from having worked at a large manufacturing corporation:

1. 80% of quality problems are management caused and management correctible.

2. A fish rots from the head.

As for Killington, in my opinion both maxims apply. On the other hand, I still love skiing here and recommend it to anyone.

 

[JimG.]

A couple of old maxims from having worked at a large manufacturing corporation:

1. 80% of quality problems are management caused and management correctible.

2. A fish rots from the head.

As for Killington, in my opinion both maxims apply. On the other hand, I still love skiing here and recommend it to anyone.

I totally agree.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

It's all personal opinion on what is crowded, but I find Killington to be crowded to a point where it decreases enjoyment. I do think it has some good terrain, but at times the trails can be like an obstacle course as you always have to avoid people. On mountains with lower skier density there is a lot more freedom, and you don't have the constant stress of having to avoid crashes.

Exactly

 

[riverc0il]

Consider them "movable gates" and ski accordingly :uzi:

skiers with that attitude is another reason i care not for kmart.

 

[Bubbartzky]

skiers with that attitude is another reason i care not for kmart.

LOL....I'm actually one who does not take that attitude and generally stop to let others pass if appropriate, or stop to help people who appear lost. On the other hand, there's nothing that annoys me much more than people who stop and gather, lined up across the hill, as if nobody else is on the trail. That you can find anywhere, not just here.

 

[kcyanks1]

"The overcrowding only occurs in certain _well known_ areas, not the entire mountain. For regulars, not a big deal."

Couldn't have said it any better. Convergence of Double Dipper/Downdraft/Royal East Fall = bad news. Mouse Trap/Chute = bad news. There are more... It is only necessary to travel through these junctions briefly. Then, frankly, I have never had a problem if you avoid the freeways.

I won't profess to being a Killington expert. I agree that some areas are worse than others, particularly where trails merge, and especially some of the places you've mentioned. I've enjoyed almost every trip I've had to Killington. I'd figure as of now it makes my top-5 resorts in the east. I'm not writing this as a Killington hater. But even just skiing the Canyon trails themselves (before where they all merge), some stuff on Bear Mountain (Wildfile and Bear Claw have awful crowds, or they did on my most recent trips) or Skye Peak (Skye Lark, Dreamaker, and trails in the Needle's Eye area, not just Superstar), you encounter more crowds than you do at Sugarbush. Perhaps my view is colored from my recent trips this year, where natural snow trails (and the glades) were closed, meaning people were forced onto fewer trails and out of the glades, which are often the easiest way to avoid crowds. Also, about the "well known" area thing, while if it were solely those areas it would certainly be better, having those areas be llke a crowded subway still makes a difference, because they are not completely avoidable when you want to go from mountain to mountain.

 

[ga2ski]

As many have said, Kmart can be intimidating at first. As an SR regular, I thought it was a mountain full of crossover trails until a few friends that skied the mountain regularly gave me the regulars' tour. I sure some of you in here (Bubba, Dork, Ty, etc) know it even better and I like to meet up and learn your secrets.

Anyway, once you figure out the mountain it has a lot of goods both good and off trail Also I'm not as big on apres some here, but i highly recommend the Lookout for some refreshments and free wings after 3 pm. It is always I stop I make. Oh yeah Casey's has some good wings as well.:beer:

 

[Zand]

I liked the terrain at K. Not the most challenging stuff, but fun if you know where to go. Problem is is that the place is so freaking expensive. I payed $116 for a two day ticket there in April. The place was only half open and the second day the condtions were in the trash. That comes out to $58 a day. The week before, I payed $44 for a day ticket at the Bush for more terrain and better conditions. Hell, I payed $16 less for a 3 day ticket at Waterville on a mid-January weekend for virtually the same amount of terrain. The Sunday I was at K, the day ticket was still $72. IN APRIL. Pathetic. That's overkill mid-winter with everything open. Maybe 33% of the mountain was open that day for me. Also, the food was terrible and expensive. I didn't experience any bad attitude, probably because no one was there so they probably wanted someone to talk to. However, at their sister Mount Snow, everything was terrible, so it definitely runs in ASC. What K needs is to maybe raise their season passes by like $100 (they're too cheap, too many people buy them) and drop the day passes by about $10.

 

[ALLSKIING]

I liked the terrain at K. Not the most challenging stuff.

It can be if you ski trails like:
Conclusion
OL
Ovation
Vertigo
I think they stack up pretty well against most in the east.

 

[Zand]

It can be if you ski trails like:
Conclusion
OL
Ovation
Vertigo
I think they stack up pretty well against most in the east.

I didn't find OL real challenging. Probably because of the nice soft conditions. It was steep, but I can think of many more challenging trails. I can't account for the others though.

 

[Bubbartzky]

I liked the terrain at K. Not the most challenging stuff, but fun if you know where to go. Problem is is that the place is so freaking expensive. I payed $116 for a two day ticket there in April. The place was only half open and the second day the condtions were in the trash. That comes out to $58 a day. The week before, I payed $44 for a day ticket at the Bush for more terrain and better conditions. Hell, I payed $16 less for a 3 day ticket at Waterville on a mid-January weekend for virtually the same amount of terrain. The Sunday I was at K, the day ticket was still $72. IN APRIL. Pathetic. That's overkill mid-winter with everything open. Maybe 33% of the mountain was open that day for me. Also, the food was terrible and expensive. I didn't experience any bad attitude, probably because no one was there so they probably wanted someone to talk to. However, at their sister Mount Snow, everything was terrible, so it definitely runs in ASC. What K needs is to maybe raise their season passes by like $100 (they're too cheap, too many people buy them) and drop the day passes by about $10.

Killington, as well as ASC as a whole, is focused on short term income not on long term success. They announced in February, after Presidents' week, that they would be holding day tickets at holiday prices for the rest of the season, both weekend and weekday. Stupid marketing. (Need more people? Need to increase revenue? Raise prices. Any idiot, even those who failed Economics 101, could tell you that's the worst thing to do.) Being a season pass holder, I had no idea they held those prices as late in the season as they did though. Wow! Anyway, their thought process was obviously to get as much revenue this past season as possible to make up for the increased cost of snowmaking due to the bad weather and to ignore the longer term impact of what customers would think about it. Well, folks obviously voted with their feet, since skier visits dropped almost 20%. Another ASC success story, for sure.uke:

 

[riverc0il]

Bubbartzky, i have to disagree with your assessment of Kmart's pricing issue this past season. who pays full price for kmart tickets mid-season? most people skiing K do so on either a season pass or get a multi-day deal through lodging. the people paying full price are probably skiing their with their pass holder friends and are stuck. it is a bad policy if your goal is retain as many day trippers as possible, but kmarts goal is the season pass and vacation market. higher prices convince people that the season pass is such a super deal because it pays for itself after only, what.... 5 or 6 days? in this sense, higher day ticket prices may help to drive season pass sales.

i completely agree that kmart is focused on short term, most corporations are only concerned about the short term and what their stock price is at currently. also, raising day ticket prices is sure to have some bad feelings for the few suckers that paid that much to ski for one day (seriously, you are a sucker to pay $70 to ski kmart, period). but i doubt kmart really had to worry much. if i were kmart, i would be much more concerned with long term implications of whether or not they can retain their current season pass holders. if K can not retain their current season pass holders, those people are going else where permantently, no one day trips K on a mid-season weekend and pays full price unless they have no clue. and people with no clue will end up paying any price and not complaining because they don't know any better.

 

[skibum1321]

Na...this was to provoke or stimulate conversation...like I said...its like Yanks being hated...people ALWAYS love the hate whos on top....I wanted everyone perspective..thats all

carry on..

M

Is Killington the biggest with the most skier visits? Yes
Does that necessarily make them on top? No
It really depends on what you define as on top in the East. They can't turn a profit, which doesn't help their argument.

I have always hated Kmart and the only times that I will go is for some late spring turns. The big problems as I see it are:
- wayyy too much lift capacity
- too many trails flow into one
- too many gapers flailing down the mountain
- the mountain just doesn't have a good flow to it

I probably just haven't skied the right places and I've never had someone show me the glades, but Outer Limits and Devil's Fiddle and {insert Kmart trail name} really aren't anything special - they are 50 feet wide, which takes all of the challenge out.
Not to turn the thread down this path, but the Yankees aren't on top either.

 

[skibum1321]

It can be if you ski trails like:
Conclusion
OL
Ovation
Vertigo
I think they stack up pretty well against most in the east.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I haven't found myself genuinely challenged by any of those trails. They don't even come close to stacking up against the cliffs, natural snow and narrowness of Smuggs, MRG or many of the trails at the Bush.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Bubbartzky, i have to disagree with your assessment of Kmart's pricing issue this past season. who pays full price for kmart tickets mid-season? most people skiing K do so on either a season pass or get a multi-day deal through lodging. the people paying full price are probably skiing their with their pass holder friends and are stuck. it is a bad policy if your goal is retain as many day trippers as possible, but kmarts goal is the season pass and vacation market. higher prices convince people that the season pass is such a super deal because it pays for itself after only, what.... 5 or 6 days? in this sense, higher day ticket prices may help to drive season pass sales.

The innacuracy of this sentiment should be self-evident. Since K-Mart's skier visits declined by the most of any major resort in VT (maybe Suicide Six did worse, I don't know, but it wouldn't matter), people clearly voted with their wallets that the product isn't worth the price.