Killllington 🎿🏂🏂🎿🎿🏂🏂🎿😀

[deadheadskier]

If April / May skiing was such a smashing success, Killington would be mobbed. It rarely has been during my late season visits going back to the 80s.

I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing the late players are just a handful of places. It consolidates business to make it more viable. I'd rather 4-5 places do it at a sustainable level than 10 places attempt for 5/1 or later and everyone loses money.

 

[BodeMiller1]

If April / May skiing was such a smashing success, Killington would be mobbed. It rarely has been during my late season visits going back to the 80s.

I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing the late players are just a handful of places. It consolidates business to make it more viable. I'd rather 4-5 places do it at a sustainable level than 10 places attempt for 5/1 or later and everyone loses money.

Agree, butt what if Cannon tried to go util next year? Yea, never ever going to happen. The whatever Thrush , the good news is on the north boarder The "Feds" are putting up (as we "speak") towers to keep the horrible, horrible out.

The only thing that could stop them 1) The Canadian Lynx and an owl.

The powers that be said the cat and bird will be mostly okay....




Late season skiers ski late season snow.

 

[thetrailboss]

2019 must have been the year we skied Palisades Tahoe over the 4th of July then. They were open on the 4th in 2023 too which is pretty crazy. Snowbird could have been opened that year over the 4th as well. I believe they had over 800 inches of snow during the 22/23 ski year.

In any event, I'd say a closing date for Snowbird in May is still pretty good. That beats more than 95% of the ski resorts in the US...

View attachment 63625
Snowbird's average closing date matches up with Killington's closing dates pretty well over the last 5 years...

View attachment 63629
I agree with you that part of Killington's identity, like Mammoth & Palisades Tahoe, is the spring skiing setup. I've never done it there before but it would be a blow to the brand if they stopped it. Unlike the California resorts though, I'd have to imagine that the man made glacier on Superstar is pretty expensive to produce. I guess it depends on how big the loss is verses goodwill. If Killington can get even close to breakeven after March then spring skiing is worth it for their brand identity alone.

Re: Snowbird in 2023. It got real warm real fast and the snow went by quickly. They made it to Father's Day. Pretty good.

 

[thetrailboss]

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[joshua segal]

That was me. And no, I simply trust the thousands of bright minds who have run our ski areas in the East over the past century and determined spring operations are a money loser more than some kook on the Internet blabbing its because of marketing that they are unsuccessful.

You didn't answer my question. What more marketing do you want to see from Jay, Sugarbush and Sugarloaf that honestly would make a difference. I also mentioned Wildcat used to compete. It was always known to try and stay open until May. Almost always dead in April. Thousands of people across the street hiking instead.

Lol deadhead! Tell us what you ski on to make me an official liar! ROTFL

First of all, the late season product isn't viable for many of the ski areas (see below for details), and while for Killington, late season is mid-May to early June; for places like Crotched, Sunapee, Gunstock, etc. late season might mean mid-April.

Glen Ellen actually used to compete with Killington for last-to-close in the mid-70's. Glen Ellen was non-competitive because they were too far from major population centers (about an hour further than Killington). You ask: "What more marketing do you want to see from Jay, Sugarbush and Sugarloaf." and later you added "Wildcat". The only one of those four that I think should be in it is Jay. That is because they have access to both Burlington and Montreal.

What draws a crowd in late March and April? Answer: Special events.

There is always a good crowd for the slush cup events.
Charity events: They always draw people, and it gets the area free advertising/publicity.
Set up a putting course on a green circle run.
Set up a frisbee course on a green circle run.
Do a late-season rail jam.

Let's face it: Minor League baseball makes it with fireworks, and all sorts of gimmicks. The product itself isn't that good.

I happen to think that the late season product is good. One poster on this thread complained about moguls: If the only run on the hill is Superstar and the chairlift is running full, it takes 1.5 to 2 hours to make it too difficult, even for many advanced skiers. But in late-April/Early-May, Bittersweet, Hi-Road and Skyelark do hold up for most of the day.

As to weather: I'll take a rainy spring day over a rainy January day. I'll take 50 to 60 degrees in April over -20 in January, etc.

If this doesn't answer your question, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you a pdf file that goes into greater detail.

 

[skiur]

Skye and bitter are bumped up by 1030 on a sunny spring weekend.

 

[letitsnow1]

I happen to think that the late season product is good. One poster on this thread complained about moguls: If the only run on the hill is Superstar and the chairlift is running full, it takes 1.5 to 2 hours to make it too difficult, even for many advanced skiers. But in late-April/Early-May, Bittersweet, Hi-Road and Skyelark do hold up for most of the day.

If the bumps on superstar are too difficult your not an advanced skier your an intermediate.

I think your right About special events , that's why closing day is the busiest day of the spring at killington everyone wants thier t shirt

 

[deadheadskier]

Lol deadhead! Tell us what you ski on to make me an official liar! ROTFL

First of all, the late season product isn't viable for many of the ski areas (see below for details), and while for Killington, late season is mid-May to early June; for places like Crotched, Sunapee, Gunstock, etc. late season might mean mid-April.

Glen Ellen actually used to compete with Killington for last-to-close in the mid-70's. Glen Ellen was non-competitive because they were too far from major population centers (about an hour further than Killington). You ask: "What more marketing do you want to see from Jay, Sugarbush and Sugarloaf." and later you added "Wildcat". The only one of those four that I think should be in it is Jay. That is because they have access to both Burlington and Montreal.

What draws a crowd in late March and April? Answer: Special events.

There is always a good crowd for the slush cup events.
Charity events: They always draw people, and it gets the area free advertising/publicity.
Set up a putting course on a green circle run.
Set up a frisbee course on a green circle run.
Do a late-season rail jam.

Let's face it: Minor League baseball makes it with fireworks, and all sorts of gimmicks. The product itself isn't that good.

I happen to think that the late season product is good. One poster on this thread complained about moguls: If the only run on the hill is Superstar and the chairlift is running full, it takes 1.5 to 2 hours to make it too difficult, even for many advanced skiers. But in late-April/Early-May, Bittersweet, Hi-Road and Skyelark do hold up for most of the day.

As to weather: I'll take a rainy spring day over a rainy January day. I'll take 50 to 60 degrees in April over -20 in January, etc.

If this doesn't answer your question, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you a pdf file that goes into greater detail.

Okay, spend thousands on special events, it rains and no one shows up. Then what?

Mike Solimano has said Killington loses money on the WC. An event where 20k people show up. But, yeah, I'm sure April and May is a major profit opportunity by booking a few concerts.

Do you think all of these areas don't want to make money Joshua? What's your reasoning why almost everywhere shuts down by early April if there's money to be made? Are you just a better business mind than all of these owners?

And how does the model of skis I use have anything to do with your truthfulness?

 

[joshua segal]

Okay, spend thousands on special events, it rains and no one shows up. Then what?

Mike Solimano has said Killington loses money on the WC. An event where 20k people show up. But, yeah, I'm sure April and May is a major profit opportunity by booking a few concerts.

Do you think all of these areas don't want to make money Joshua? What's your reasoning why almost everywhere shuts down by early April if there's money to be made? Are you just a better business mind than all of these owners?

And how does the model of skis I use have anything to do with your truthfulness?

You ask, "And how does the model of skis I use have anything to do with your truthfulness?"

Because I suggested that anyone with your antiquated ideas is probably skiing on a pair of Northlands with cable bindings and lace boots! What? No sense of humor?

And Mike Solimano told me that Killington was profitable through mid-May.

You said, "Okay, spend thousands on special events, it rains and no one shows up. Then what?"

My son has a foodtruck business. Sometimes he goes to an event and gets rained out. Do you think he should give up the business?

It rains on weekends in January, too. Do you think they should shut the doors because of that?

The chance that it rains is one of the risks of the business - and it doesn't matter if it's January or April.

As to losing money on the World Cup: Maybe you're right. If he/Killington "really" was losing money, he would be one of the stupidest businessmen in the industry. But he is obviously smart enough to recognize the intangible gains to the corporation that having the WC makes.

You ask, "Are you just a better business mind than all of these owners?"

There is a 500+ page thread on Bob Katz that would have me believing that many in the AZ community don't think he has a good business mind. Who are the great minds in the industry: Preston Smith who went with the late season? Fred Pabst? Walt Schoenknecht? Les Otten? All of these were innovators in their era and what they all did were things that got them metaphorically "off their Northlands with cable bindings and lace boots".

 

[joshua segal]

If the bumps on superstar are too difficult your not an advanced skier your an intermediate.

...

Perhaps we have different definitions of advanced vs. expert. I was referring to Preston's Pitch when I made that statement. I would reframe your statement as "If the bumps on Preston's Pitch on a late spring afternoon are too difficult, you're not an expert skier: you may be something less, possibly even a total idiot (and I've seen a few of those on that run in late May at Killington)."

 

[deadheadskier]

Bullshit Josh. The risk of rain is an order of magnitude higher in April than January. Don't make yourself sound stupid trying to suggest the risk is the same. And the reason managing the expense side of ledgers becomes all the more important in April than January is there is very little runway left to recoup losses. Any ski resort GM would tell you exactly that.

Have fun in your little fantasy world where there's this major demand for skiing in April and May. This will be my 41st year skiing. I've yet to see it and it's not because of flawed marketing.

The comparison I would make is the many 80 degree days in early October that I've been on Winnipesaukee and see hardly anyone else out there. It's a far better experience than 80 degrees in early June when the lake is already slammed. It's just like how December is a busier ski month than April. People have moved on from boating come October just like people move on from skiing come April. I'd keep my boat in until Thanksgiving weekend if the marina allowed me to. They close Columbus Day because there's not enough business. Same reason most ski areas close early April.

 

[cdskier]

Absolutely astonishing to think that all the various mountain GMs out there over the years haven't figured out that all they have to do is increase marketing and they'd be sitting on gold-mines in the spring...

 

[thetrailboss]

There is a 500+ page thread on Bob Katz that would have me believing that many in the AZ community don't think he has a good business mind.

"THE NAME IS ROB. NOT BOB! GET IT RIGHT!"

 

[joshua segal]

Bullshit Josh. The risk of rain is an order of magnitude higher in April than January. Don't make yourself sound stupid trying to suggest the risk is the same. And the reason managing the expense side of ledgers becomes all the more important in April than January is there is very little runway left to recoup losses. Any ski resort GM would tell you exactly that.

Have fun in your little fantasy world where there's this major demand for skiing in April and May. This will be my 41st year skiing. I've yet to see it and it's not because of flawed marketing.

The comparison I would make is the many 80 degree days in early October that I've been on Winnipesaukee and see hardly anyone else out there. It's a far better experience than 80 degrees in early June when the lake is already slammed. It's just like how December is a busier ski month than April. People have moved on from boating come October just like people move on from skiing come April. I'd keep my boat in until Thanksgiving weekend if the marina allowed me to. They close Columbus Day because there's not eny business. Same reason most ski areas close early April.

The tone of your reply indicates to me that you haven’t read my replies. We can’t have a civil discussion of the issue if all you’ve got to say is “bullshit” and you keep citing empty slopes when there is no marketing to promote their product.

 

[deadheadskier]

I have read your posts. There isn't much of a civil discussion to be had with someone who makes false equivalencies like the potential for rain in January being the same as April. A lot of your posts on the subject are so freaking out there, it's borderline trolling. Either that or you're just a moron. Maybe both.

 

[joshua segal]

I have read your posts. There isn't much of a civil discussion to be had with someone who makes false equivalencies like the potential for rain in January being the same as April. A lot of your posts on the subject are so freaking out there, it's borderline trolling. Either that or you're just a moron. Maybe both.

I definitely see why you go by the name "deadhead".

 

[deadheadskier]

I definitely see why you go by the name "deadhead".

Oh the horror. Someone made fun of me because my handle indicates I'm a big fan of the Grateful Dead.

What a comedian!

 

[machski]

I have read your posts. There isn't much of a civil discussion to be had with someone who makes false equivalencies like the potential for rain in January being the same as April. A lot of your posts on the subject are so freaking out there, it's borderline trolling. Either that or you're just a moron. Maybe both.

Josh,
I have to agree with DHS. No amount of marketing will away the masses that have moved onto to other life aspects by the spring. Add in the increasing potential weather will be wet not white on weekends, yes the snow is soft but that means in very short order smooth groomed trails turn bumpy which much of the skiing public doesn't enjoy, how does marketing overcome those realities? And to say Sugarloaf has never tried marketing the late season is absolutely absurd. They marketed heavily as King of Spring, even putting a on the peak logo for several years. It never really took off.

 

[jaytrem]

Oddly enough even Big Snow does much better business in the winter. Indoor or outdoor, it seems like most people have it set in their heads that skiing is to only be enjoyed during the winter months.

 

[Newpylong]

I simply can't understand what type of "marketing" is going to magically bring in enough traffic to change the ROI that every single ski area in the East has calculated over the past however many years. How many people who have already pulled out the golf clubs are going to flock north if they hear that "xyz resort is still open". The answer is likely not enough the move the needle.