Local Residents Sound Off About Burke Mountain Development

[nek_crumudgeon]

I'm not sure the moratorium is aimed at Ginn - they'll be answering to the state at this level because of the master plan. I still think this hurts the town and I know some of you disagree. All that will happen is the costs will go up as supply is either artifically or materially low. If costs increase, well, then who has the $ to develop anything in town? No one local, that's for sure. I've seen this before all over the west, and it's killed off commerce in towns for the locals. Jackson Hole anyone?

 

[halfpintvt]

The moratorium is definitely not aimed at Ginn, as the Burke Mountain Master Plan pretty much regulates what can be done and where. I think the greater concern is about all the development which will occur because Ginn is here. Currently there are six subdivisions awaiting action by the development review board with many more to come I'm sure. The pending subdivisions range in size from 2 lots to six lots. A local realtor said that she received a call from a potential client in Florida who is flying up to attend the June 5th Selectmen's meeting where Ginn will give a preliminary outline of their plans. This client wants to buy some land, build a house and carve the remaining land up into lots which they would sell. These are the kinds of activities which need to be considered very carefully. Once the trees are cut down and the houses and shops are built there will be no going back. Burke's rural character would change dramatically if every large parcel was cut up into 1 acre housing lots....just my 2 cents from the kingdom.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm not sure how a seven-month moritorium is going to push land values up, nek_crumudgeon. And wild land speculation doesn't push land values up? :-? Ginn is supporting the planning process because it will mean more bang for their $ and more protection of their investment. I'm cautiously optimistic about these plans as well...we've heard them all before...just never seen them come to fruition.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ginn and Burke Town meet behind closed doors to discuss a contract that might cover town expenses related to the projects at the mountain.

 

[nek_crumudgeon]

Burke Tax re-valuations are in. Holy yikes! My taxable value went up 90% and I'm not even in EB . . . The reassesment began before Ginn bought anything, so who knows what to make of it. There goes that new bike . . .

 

[riverc0il]

Just saw this in the Cal Rec down at StJ House: Burke Property Values More Than Double In Reapparaisal

Though tax re-evaluation has been generating a lot of buzz all over the Kingdom it seems. I have co-workers that own in Concord, no where near Burke to be effected, and many of their neighbors have seen increases of two to three times their old value. So property values are up everywhere, though Burke residents, especially those around the mountain, are surely going to see the highest increases. The re-evaluation was well timed for Ginn since they are looking to buy up so much property, it seems likely a lot of folks are going to need to sell if taxes on the re-evaluated values are way higher.

 

[thetrailboss]

FYI Monday Night is the public meeting, re: Burke Mountain's Official Plans. IIRC it is at 5pm in Burke at the Town Hall (?) Maybe somewhere else.

 

[thetrailboss]

Well, the plans were released. Four proposals. We're hoping that maybe Burke will discuss them in the AZ Challenge.

I just read the Caledonian's article on your meeting last night with Burke Town. Just from what I saw in the Caledonian's picture, it looks like the Summit Quad may be relocated to a line that runs from Mid Burke, up through Doug's Drop or so, and to the summit while another lift would be in the East Bowl, closer to Powderhorn/Wilderness. Did anyone attend?

 

[Masskier]

I found the meeting last night very interesting. Ginn certainly has the experience and expertise in this type of developement. Under the current PUD they could build 1600+ units of housing. They hope to build 850. 550 single families and 300 hotel type Condos. The mid burke lodge (village) would be below the current parking in the big field. A new 4 or 6 pack detach would be installed from the front of the new village about where the lower parking lot is now. The willowby quad would be shorten so it ends just past the top of the poma. New detach quad in the sun bowl. New lift and trails down by the Cutter. This is where they have alot of slope side sing families. New beginner lift in the field just below the new mid burke area. Out of the 550 single familes about 175 are slope side or ski in ski out. The rest will be built around the new 18 hole golf course. 9 holes on each side of Pinkam road. They stressed that they will keep many of the Nordic trails, Vast trails, mountian biking trails ect.

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks for the report! :beer:

I found the meeting last night very interesting. Ginn certainly has the experience and expertise in this type of developement. Under the current PUD they could build 1600+ units of housing. They hope to build 850. 550 single families and 300 hotel type Condos. The mid burke lodge (village) would be below the current parking in the big field. A new 4 or 6 pack detach would be installed from the front of the new village about where the lower parking lot is now.

Six pack would be uke:

The willowby quad would be shorten so it ends just past the top of the poma.

This is not a good idea, especially for early and late season skiing. I'm sure this is just one proposal....it doesn't make much sense from a skiing perspective. One would have to ride three lifts to get to the summit? :blink: How is that progress? I'd have the lift terminate at the summit and maybe run a fixed grip lift in in the East Bowl.

New detach quad in the sun bowl.

Sun Bowl???? :blink: You mean East Bowl? :wink: Sun Bowl is at Stratton and Sunapee but not Burke :wink:

New lift and trails down by the Cutter. This is where they have alot of slope side sing families.

Sounds like the plan from the 1980's.

New beginner lift in the field just below the new mid burke area.

If this does happen, the ironically they will be going back to the past. There used to be a T-Bar in that field before Sherburne was constructed.

Out of the 550 single familes about 175 are slope side or ski in ski out. The rest will be built around the new 18 hole golf course. 9 holes on each side of Pinkam road. They stressed that they will keep many of the Nordic trails, Vast trails, mountian biking trails ect.

Sounds like Ginn is sticking to what they know best...focusing on Golf. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. The golf course on the side of the Pinkham Road...big change. Wonder if they will pave that road? Hope not.

 

[greenmountainboy]

Centex pulling out of Killington

I just heard on VPR this morning that Centex is backing out of plans to build a big Alpine Village at Killington. They are, however, still committed to a project at Loon. As the housing market cools, I am curious to see how other big developers such as Ginn react. Any thoughts, Anyone?

GMB

 

[thetrailboss]

Welcome to the boards, greenmountainboy. As I mentioned to the_original_trailboss, Ginn just got approval for their CO project (Minturn). I think they are looking at the longer term and, at some level, their target market doesn't give a rats a$$ if the housing market cools...they still want nice second, third homes.

 

[thetrailboss]

Bump.

At the Season Passholder's Party, they had a Ginn Rep along with their plan for the mountain. I took a long, hard, look. I have drawn the lift plan on the current trail map, which I am attaching here.

As you can see:

* Willoughby Quad is shortened to dump out at the same level where Poma does now. Good news: you can ski Warren's, the other good pitch, and racers can use it. The bad news: it puts too many people at that one area...may become a choke point.

* MidBurke: Will be GONE. Turned into a huge hotel complex. Two development pods....one near the bottom of a new summit lift and another over near the current snowmaking pond.

* The new summit lift will take a line just to the left of the Poma...running up over Doug's it looks like and up over Toll Road to the summit.

* Poma will be shortened again. :roll:

* East Bowl lift....not a new idea by any means.

* The "Cutter Lift" will go from where the Cutter is up across that meadow.

* A "beginner" lift in the new MidBurke complex.

When any Burke veteran looks at this, they see many incorporations of the previous 'master plan,' particularly the Cutter Area (which once was "Pinkham") and the East Bowl Lift.

What is missing? No lift on West Peak. The rep "did not know" about any plans there. Also, notice the large dead spot over the Dipper Area. Northern Star wanted to put a FGQ or Triple there....run it to the top of Little Dipper. Nothing in the works.

The rep only knew of the real estate aspect....not much about the skiing part....

My drawing shows the new and existing lifts. Poma and Willoughby are shown "cut off" as is the Sherburne HSQ.

The pink areas (at MidBurke) indicate where the housing units are going to be...roughly...

Thoughts?

 

[riverc0il]

nothing too revolutionary in there, much of what has been suspected. and as you mentioned, lots of hints of previous plans. i am surprised they plan to keep the poma and current summit quad. i could understand keeping one or the other to service warren's way and the racers, keeping both seems odd. especially the shortened poma. what is the point in hacking that in half?

would be interested to hear about any new trails for the east bowl lift. only the east bowl trail itself and perhaps one of the current glades could access the base of that lift. i assume new trails are going into that area? looks like the base of the east bowl lift would be lower down on the mountain than the current traverse back to midburke, so perhaps teh other glades and trails dumping out onto that traverse could reach that quad? what a shame, those glades and the east bowl are the best part of the mountain.

no idea about that cutter lift. but looks like anything that couldn't cut back to the east bowl lift could go either back to midburke condo and hotel central or down to the cutter area? but no connect between the cutter and east bowl lift? not sure of the topography, but that seems like it would be a good transfer location.

hard to say without being there. based on what they said, do you think these guys are playing with a full ski area deck of cards? especially considering the rep didn't know much about the ski area aspect, just the development. lots of unanswered questions, i think that map raises more questions than it answers. it certainly confirms my suspicion that i am going to like burke less in ten years time. the HSQ to the summit is desperately needed, but i will hate to see the east bowl reduced to a trail pod.

 

[56fish]

What's the status of the permitting? Groundbreaking (condos@MidBurke) in sight?

 

[thetrailboss]

What's the status of the permitting? Groundbreaking (condos@MidBurke) in sight?

They are planning on going up for permitting in December.

No work until 2 years from now at least.

The rep "did not know" of any snowmaking work for this summer and doubted it because they want to "do the work at the same time" and only have to enter "one permit." There had been some thought of doing the ski area work sooner, but that had been vetoed, or at least that is what she thought.

 

[thetrailboss]

nothing too revolutionary in there, much of what has been suspected. and as you mentioned, lots of hints of previous plans. i am surprised they plan to keep the poma and current summit quad. i could understand keeping one or the other to service warren's way and the racers, keeping both seems odd. especially the shortened poma. what is the point in hacking that in half?

The reduction of the Poma did not make me happy either...but I supposed it is reduced because the new HSQ will go right over the top of Warren's. It just seems like right now they have a great set up...leave it.

would be interested to hear about any new trails for the east bowl lift. only the east bowl trail itself and perhaps one of the current glades could access the base of that lift. i assume new trails are going into that area? looks like the base of the east bowl lift would be lower down on the mountain than the current traverse back to midburke, so perhaps teh other glades and trails dumping out onto that traverse could reach that quad? what a shame, those glades and the east bowl are the best part of the mountain.

My placement of the lift may be off. If you look at trail maps, they distort the size and shape of that area. If you look at Google Earth and drive up Pinkham Road, you can see that there is quite an expanse between Wilderness and East Bowl and a lift would probably go right up the middle of it and not toward the perimeter. The placement of the lift would probably be further down the run out.

And also...interesting tidbit....the glades were accidents per se. The "intent" of Northern Star was to "clear and survey" what were to be new trails. They were smart in making them glades first...so that they could get a lot of bang for not a lot of $$$. If you look at the trail map, and compare it to what NStar had in mind, you can see where the trails were (and probably are) going to be....Dixiland, Throbulator, etc. were all meant to be trails. The pitch above Little Dipper was to become part of that trail (the snowmaking pipe is in fact already in place under the Toll Road...the trail is not cleared yet). They intended on making "Scooby Doo" a trail that dumped onto Doug's and then went down Mountain Marsh and through Marshland (making one long trail). Same thing with Little Chief. So one by one, the plan was to convert those into ski trails. It just never really happened. In a good snow year, we can be thankful for that.

no idea about that cutter lift. but looks like anything that couldn't cut back to the east bowl lift could go either back to midburke condo and hotel central or down to the cutter area? but no connect between the cutter and east bowl lift? not sure of the topography, but that seems like it would be a good transfer location.

Again, my rendering may be off....

hard to say without being there. based on what they said, do you think these guys are playing with a full ski area deck of cards? especially considering the rep didn't know much about the ski area aspect, just the development. lots of unanswered questions, i think that map raises more questions than it answers. it certainly confirms my suspicion that i am going to like burke less in ten years time. the HSQ to the summit is desperately needed, but i will hate to see the east bowl reduced to a trail pod.

I agree with the asking more questions. I also was :blink: as to why someone from ski area operations wasn't fielding questions. I know that they would answer any if asked. However, remember that we are not the intended "market" per se....

 

[the original trailboss]

Ski area equals amenity-period

The ski area is slated to only be an amenity to the resort community (as will the private golf course) - this is their way of letting you know that, and, what they are thinking. Look closely as there is a lot to see on the big map.

 

[thetrailboss]

The ski area is slated to only be an amenity to the resort community (as will the private golf course) - this is their way of letting you know that, and, what they are thinking. Look closely as there is a lot to see on the big map.

This was another oddity. The "map" they produced for the passholders FOCUSED on the property and plans for REAL ESTATE development. It detailed all the abutting landowners by name. It did not depict ski trails or much of the terrain above MidBurke. When asked why there was not a map regarding the ski area development portion (trails, lifts), the woman laughed and said that that map "was not backed on foam for presentation." Now, if you have the passholders as an audience, do they really care about the houses? No, the interest expressed, from what I saw, was in knowing about the ski area.

 

[riverc0il]

heh. those silly resort developers. they probably thought it would be a perfect idea to make their first condo pitch to pass holders. sounds really good in the board room until they make the pitch and realize the pass holders that showed up are probably locals not interested in the development but rather the ski area. really shows the priorities of the company. but then again, like i typed before, this is what was expected... a resort company with the ski area as an attraction to purchase real estate.