MAX vs MCP?

[deadheadskier]

I don't see the logic why anyone will be upset just because others could afford it?

Isn't that the point? Lower price == more people can afford it. How many "Stowe regulars" prefers higher pass price just so others can't afford it?

Most of my old friends in Stowe (I lived there for several years) all commented how incredibly crowded the mountain was this winter. They don't want to see even more people there even if they save money.

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[Teleskier]

For someone from Boston, MAX could be better

Anecdotal, but everyone in Boston who either media shared or discussed passes with me - to a person all bought MAX. Seems to be universal agreement with you.

 

[abc]

Most of my old friends in Stowe (I lived there for several years) all commented how incredibly crowded the mountain was this winter. They don't want to see even more people there even if they save money.

My buddy at Park City moaned about the same thing on post-Vail year 1. But now she sung the praises of the lower cost pass, crowd by damned!

 

[cdskier]

I don't see the logic why anyone will be upset just because others could afford it?

Isn't that the point? Lower price == more people can afford it. How many "Stowe regulars" prefers higher pass price just so others can't afford it?

Most of my old friends in Stowe (I lived there for several years) all commented how incredibly crowded the mountain was this winter. They don't want to see even more people there even if they save money.

Personally I would have never paid Stowe's old pass prices, but I do understand the feeling using my home mountain as a corollary. Sugarbush dropped their pass price this coming season due to the Epic pricing. I know Sugarbush said they were "limiting" the number of passes sold at the lower prices, but if next season is more crowded, then I'll be one of those people that would be OK seeing SB raise their prices up to decrease crowds.

What is interesting to me is how much season pass prices fluctuate quite a bit from year to year due to competition and new multi-pass offerings...yet walk up window ticket prices seem to have only gone up. Seriously, has anyone ever lowered walk-up rates recently? Those high prices worry me more than season pass prices because I'm concerned they scare away new people from potentially being introduced to the sport. Lower season pass prices will help keep people from leaving the sport...but they are not too relevant to helping grow the sport with new people (I'm not referring to kids here obviously that are introduced to skiing at a young age by their parents)

 

[deadheadskier]

My buddy at Park City moaned about the same thing on post-Vail year 1. But now she sung the praises of the lower cost pass, crowd by damned!

Some of these friends I'm talking about get a deal through employers anyway.

I'll also add that some of these folks work in Real Estate and have clients listing their second homes with intentions of moving down to the MRV area as the community and skiing is more like what Stowe used to be 15-20 years ago.

The general consensus is the mountain is becoming intolerable crowded on weekends. They long for the days when you could roll up on a Saturday at 9 and not have to wait 15-20 minutes just to park the car. The benefits of all the shiny new stuff is mostly lost on the skiing purists who were initially attracted by the terrain above all else. Stowe gets 250-300" of natural snow a year and is generally pretty cold. Its always been just about the best place to ski in the east for those reasons combined with their terrain. These folks don't dislike all the new snowmaking and fancy Spruce lodge, but they miss the way it once was.

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[dlague]

I don't see the logic why anyone will be upset just because others could afford it?

Isn't that the point? Lower price == more people can afford it. How many "Stowe regulars" prefers higher pass price just so others can't afford it?

Well more people may now be skiing Stowe than before for starters.

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[abc]

These folks don't dislike all the new snowmaking and fancy Spruce lodge, but they miss the way it once was.

But all of that happened pre-Vail purchase.

Stowe chosen the path of "development" quite many years ago. Real estate development that is. "the way it once was" had stopped being so before the Vail purchase, or the associated lowering of the season pass cost.

 

[JimG.]

I don't see the logic why anyone will be upset just because others could afford it?

How many "Stowe regulars" prefers higher pass price just so others can't afford it?

I think many more than you imagine.

You know, there are quite a few people who put the cost of doing something way down on their list of priorities. I always look at value, not cost.

I don't care much about crowds and find ways to avoid them, but to many skiers avoiding crowds is a great reason to increase acceptable cost.

 

[Jcb890]

Anecdotal, but everyone in Boston who either media shared or discussed passes with me - to a person all bought MAX. Seems to be universal agreement with you.

We're in Central, MA as opposed to Boston, but same idea.

Even if you don't travel at all, you can easily hit "value" with the pass. I'll be happy to do Killington, Loon, Sunday River and hopefully Sugarloaf. Many of the Boston crowd will happily use their 5 at Stratton, Okemo, Sunapee, Loon, etc.

Even if you just use it 15 times in New England, you're at $41.93 per day ($629/15) which is good value by itself for the price of lift tickets at the mountains on there. Then, there's great long weekend or week-long options on the East Coast also like Canada, NY, ME and if you travel out West you're really getting a good value out of it.

Using this year's $629 price for a full MAX, if I use the same 18 MAX tickets I did this past season that puts me at $34.94/day. Not bad considering those mountains were Killington, Loon, Stratton, Sunday River, Copper and Big Sky.

 

[deadheadskier]

But all of that happened pre-Vail purchase.

Stowe chosen the path of "development" quite many years ago. Real estate development that is. "the way it once was" had stopped being so before the Vail purchase, or the associated lowering of the season pass cost.

Absolutely and the results of that development are not universally appreciated with the main complaint being increased crowds. Cutting the pass price in half is only going to magnify that problem.

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[dlague]

These folks don't dislike all the new snowmaking and fancy Spruce lodge, but they miss the way it once was.

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Jay Peak is another example. Some miss the old way is was. Others miss that but like the new shiney stuff yet still complain. Others this Jays new model is great. Can't please everyone I guess. As things change so do the visitors - there is a new dynamic at Jay and there has been at Stowe but it is about to change again.



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[Teleskier]

It's getting harder and harder to ski a classic New England ski mountain.

For me it started when they began fretting about all the classic New England trees in the middle of trails, what would the insurance company say, remove them all so it's all western-style wide open.

Then places like Stratton went from cherishing their original Austrian-cut trails to bringing in wide-swath-cutting bulldozers to flatten and homogenize trails to go full-bore Mountain Dew snowboarder then progressing to full-on New York/New Jersey real estate crowd versus skiing, and then jacking up the day ticket prices to unjustifiable-for-their-now-boring-terrain levels to keep all the locals and day tripper riff raff out. Now forever ruined - they can now keep it.

One by one these classic New England vibe places fell for 'development' and 'improvement'.

Some classic places with a true New England feel still exist, but are getting more and more rare, where on bad days I feel their days are also numbered - unless the people who cherish them band together to protect them like MRG did and does.

Then on really bad days - when I feel something as being the (unfortunately continual) "last straw" that the natural inherent qualities about yet another mountain I liked have been slowly 'developed' away - I console myself by reminding myself that the backcountry still exists, they have not ruined that yet, and to get back to my non-lift-service "skiing uphill is still skiing" XC and telemark roots to restore one's sanity and connection to nature by "natural" skiing a natural hill in natural snow in natural New England...

 

[deadheadskier]

That's the one thing I love most about Wildcat. It is likely to stay just the way it is for the most part.

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[cdskier]

That's the one thing I love most about Wildcat. It is likely to stay just the way it is for the most part.

I don't see current ownership at Sugarbush making any major changes either outside of lift replacements as needed or perhaps some more phases of their slopeside condos (which are not exactly selling too quickly with how pricey they are). There's likely to be minimal changes to terrain or the way the mountain skis for quite some time from what it seems. At one point they talked about a mid-mountain lodge at the top of Gate House, but that talk seems to have taken a back seat at least for now.

 

[deadheadskier]

Well, in the context of Stowe, the only real changes to the skiing in 25 years has been the widening of Hayride for racing (late 90s) and then the widening of Main Street as a new race venue and realignment of the big Spruce lift ten years ago. The big changes have all been in real estate development which has brought in larger crowds. Hopefully the real estate development at Sugarbush doesn't have a similar effect.

Wildcat well never see real estate development of any kind and it's unlikely the forest service allows any changes or expansion to terrain other than a bit more lower mountain glading. It and MRG will probably be the two major ski areas in New England that remain stuck in time basically forever. Maybe add Cannon to that list too outside of the redevelopment of Mittersill.

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[cdskier]

The big changes have all been in real estate development which has brought in larger crowds. Hopefully the real estate development at Sugarbush doesn't have a similar effect.

I don't think it will. There simply isn't a big demand for what they are trying to build. There were only 16 units in the last complex they built which was completed over a year ago and it still hasn't sold out.

 

[abc]

The big changes have all been in real estate development which has brought in larger crowds.

Isn't that a conundrum every ski mountain faces?

For skiers, the fewer people on the mountain, the better the experience. But for the owner/operator of the mountain, paying customers are the reason they exist.

The whole northern VT region had seen steady increase of skier visits because of the warming of the climates. Stowe certainly capitalized on that increase the most. But that very "success" is not welcomed by those who had in the past enjoyed the much quieter mountains.

I don't know if there's a solution that would please all.

 

[deadheadskier]

It definitely​ is a conundrum for a lot of areas. I wouldn't say climate (yet) has to do with Stowes increased traffic. The southern VT areas are as busy as ever. Stowe just added a ton of slopeside lodging. That's been the difference. More beds.

So places that don't have beds are at a disadvantage towards experiencing similar increases in business.



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[4aprice]

I really don't miss the old days that much at all. The seasons are longer now (better snowmaking) the lifts are better and faster, the grooming better. Wide trails? there are more woods cleared out now then ever before and more acres to ski.

Crowds at Max Pass areas? Thinking back over the season we hit one day at Stratton that was very busy, One line at Steamboat and one at Winter Park in February that seemed long, but they were the exceptions not the rule. I admit that with grown children we skip the 3 major skiing holidays and stay local so they are not a factor to us.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[deadheadskier]

I like the snowmaking and fast lifts too. IMO Wildcat has one of the two best HSQs in New England, the other being the Forerunner at Stowe. They also have pretty decent snowmaking. They aren't Sunday River, but for the most part it's pretty good.

I disagree on season length unless you are talking about a time before I started skiing (1983). The length of the season for most major eastern areas has been the same since back then; roughly Thanksgiving until the middle of April. Maybe it's different down in the Poconos.

Everyone has a different tolerance for crowds, but the difference between places like Cannon, Burke, Wildcat, Pico etc are night and day compared to the more "resorty" type places. From parking to lift lines to trail crowding to trails not getting skied off in three hours​ to getting a seat at the bar the experience is WAY different. Except for a handful of Saturdays a season, weekends at Wildcat ski like a midweek day at a place like Stratton.

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