Mittersill Photos (September 2010)

[threecy]

As far as adding a new base area and a significant portion of terrain by percentage, Cannon is doing things relatively inexpensively. Original plans even called for a high speed quad and many other base area lifts. No resort that I can think of has added this many acres terrain, covered this much vertical, and opened a new base area without at least installing a chairlift that would cost as much as the double they've selected.

This is getting back to the core issue - the ROI is simply not there. A double chair will serve about half as many people as a quad. The state tied its hands when it did the land swap with the feds.

Middlebury Snow Bowl installed roughly the same sized chairlift last year, brand new, with 50% more capacity - for roughly $1,000,000 less than this double chairlift.

Many of them merged from what I can gather. Garventa, CTEC, and Doppelmayr are all one company. Leitner, Partek (formerly Borvig) and Poma are all one company. Perhaps there were even more mergers that I am not aware of. Those I could name off the top of my head.

Doppelmayr/CTEC bought out Partek, which had bought out Borvig.

There used to be 8 major public accounting firms. Now there are 4. Chances are, there's more work for public accountants today than there was when all 8 firms existed.

Even combined, the two remaining OEMs are installing less New England lifts now than their former counterparts did in the golden days of lift purchases. There also isn't the same presence in New England either (if I recall, Poma had a reasonbly big operation based in New England in the 1990s - when that scaled back, one of those higher ups went on to run Sunapee).

The point is, just because there are less companies building chairlifts doesn't mean everyone is thinking they should buy used.

This gets pretty close to another point I'd been hoping to make.

One of the reasons you see a healthy used lift market is that the remaining manufacturers have made good lifts. The Mueller and Riblets of the 1960s/70s, for instance, had some fundamental issues. The Yan issues probably don't even need to be mentioned.

Doppelmayr, CTEC, Hall, Borvig, and Poma have been making good lifts for a few decades now. The technology with fixed grip chairs has not advanced much from 1980 to 2010 as compared to 1950 to 1980. If maintained, these lifts will run just as well as an OEM and will require the same maintenance, replacements, etc. The towers, terminals, chairs, concrete, etc. will stand the test of time. These lifts are not like a car that might rust out or die after 150,000 miles. Shawnee Peak, a very popular area, is installing a 25 year old lift as its primary summit lift. Wachusett reinstalled a decades old triple chairlift in its then-new Vickery Bowl. Okemo opened its South Face with a used lift, which was then reinstalled yet again in Sunapee's Snow Bowl. The average skier cannot tell the difference between one of these lifts reinstalled and a 2010 install.

Certainly. First, let me give credit where it is due. This was a direct quotation from http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareamanagement/americanskiingcompany.php :

"On November 6, 1997, the company had an Initial Public Offering (IPO) of 14,750,000 shares (New York Stock Exchange ticker symbol "SKI") at a par price of $18.00 per share."

I don't know the exactly how much money they raised in their IPO, but the company certainly went public. This means they sacrificed part of their ownership and control of the company so that they could use public money to fuel expansion. Companies can call on the public to help fund their projects without receiving a dime from the government.

Okay, I thought you were stating they used public (government) funds (like Bolton Valley did on their recent FGQ install). To clarify to others, ASC was a publicly available (ie market traded stock), private sector company. Prior to the beginning of their demise, I don't believe they used any public funds.

Of course, in another regard, loans are very difficult to find. Lenders are probably not interested in granting loans to ski areas that might never be able to pay them back. Post financial crisis regulations are also making it harder to get approved for loans.

I'm not sure what the case is today with Doppelmayr or Poma, but many ski industry suppliers will actually finance the goods/services they sell. In terms of new lift purchases, it was not uncommon for ski areas to purchase lifts using government backed loans.

Definitely, I've been checking in on your "What's New" page when I make my rounds of ski sites I check up on. Interesting stuff. I particularly like reading about expansions, especially the expansions that were planned and never came into fruition.

There's a lot more yet to come...it's pretty time consuming to pour through the documents and get an accurate history put together (for instance with the ski area ownership section, many newspaper accounts give P&S dates for M&As, rather than actual closing dates - often there can be a big difference).

 

[EPB]

Just so we're clear on definitions, when people talk about "public" money being used, that term is generally synonymous with government/taxpayer money. The "public" in "Initial Public Offering" simply refers to the fact that the shares in that company are no longer available solely to certain private investors, but can rather now be bought by anyone. ASC never used public money - they used shareholders money, all of whom were private individuals and entities. Actually, they used borrowed money from their banks that was never repaid, but that's neither hear nor there.

Whatever floats your boat. The real issue is that they made an open call to raise funds. To my knowledge, this was the only time that a major northeastern ski resort operator raised money selling equity. Do you have any insight on this?

 

[EPB]

There's a lot more yet to come...it's pretty time consuming to pour through the documents and get an accurate history put together (for instance with the ski area ownership section, many newspaper accounts give P&S dates for M&As, rather than actual closing dates - often there can be a big difference).

Very cool. I'm throwing in the towel on this debate, however. I certainly learned a thing or two about the lift market. I'm not a big fan of Cannon being run by the government, but all things considered, I can't really say they did that bad of a job. Having little faith in the government to run a tight ship will put this type of expenditure into perspective. Cheers. Bring on the history and photos.

 

[bigbob]

Less blah blah blah and more pics!

Thanks for the pics threecy!

Stopped today at 5;45 PM and they were still working, Could not get any close up pics but did take one of the lift line from the acess road, looks like the footings are stripped.

 

[thetrailboss]

Guess this kind of kills the argument about how this project was done at the wrong time for NH.

 

[threecy]

Guess this kind of kills the argument about how this project was done at the wrong time for NH.

A lot of shifting was done to produce a "balanced" budget this year. It also doesn't change what's been the big issue - next year's budget. This year's original deficit was chump change compared to next year's projections.

 

[thetrailboss]

A lot of shifting was done to produce a "balanced" budget this year. It also doesn't change what's been the big issue - next year's budget. This year's original deficit was chump change compared to next year's projections.

But there is a $70m budget surplus.

 

[Puck it]

A lot of shifting was done to produce a "balanced" budget this year. It also doesn't change what's been the big issue - next year's budget. This year's original deficit was chump change compared to next year's projections.

Stones in our pond again!!!!!!!!

Hey, Threecy, white!!!!!

 

[thetrailboss]

Does anyone else have any pictures of this project?

 

[Smellytele]

Well getting a one time payment of 96 million from the feds helped having a surplus of 70 million. Next year NH will not be so lucky...

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/New_Hampshire_state_budget

 

[CTNoob]

First post here . I have been lurking for a while, really enjoying the pictures in this thread! Not looking to weigh in on the debate, I just find it fascinating that they are bringing the Mittersill area back from the dead and I am planning to visit Cannon for the first time this winter as a result. I am a lower intermediate skier from CT who spends alot of time in NH in the winter around the Lakes Region. I got into skiing 3 years ago and try to get out 4-5 times a year.

My ski dollars going to Cannon will come at the expense of Waterville Valley or Gunstock, where I would usually go 2-3 times a year. So count me as one of the projected 18,000

 

[billski]

So count me as one of the projected 18,000

"Welcome back!" Good. So between you and I, we're almost there!

 

[bobbutts]

Are you guys planning on visiting early or late season? Better hope for heavy snowfall since there's no snowmaking, otherwise it likely will not be operating. Heading up on a mid-season weekend? Double chairs don't exactly eat through lines very well, I'm thinking the line at mitt may be excessive. My fear is that after the initial check out the expansion bump of people it may not attract return visitors because of these things.
As someone who plans my weekday trips one or two days ahead based on weather I'm pretty sure I'm going to enjoy it, but I am concerned for sure about weekenders and vacationers who will be at the mercy of weather and crowds.

 

[Smellytele]

Are you guys planning on visiting early or late season? Better hope for heavy snowfall since there's no snowmaking, otherwise it likely will not be operating. Heading up on a mid-season weekend? Double chairs don't exactly eat through lines very well, I'm thinking the line at mitt may be excessive. My fear is that after the initial check out the expansion bump of people it may not attract return visitors because of these things.
As someone who plans my weekday trips one or two days ahead based on weather I'm pretty sure I'm going to enjoy it, but I am concerned for sure about weekenders and vacationers who will be at the mercy of weather and crowds.

I think you need to state that the mittersill side has no snowmaking not the whole mountain. It may bring the people up and they can see that the whole mountain is the product not just Mittersill. With the newer upgrades to the snowmaking and better grooming they may see that hey this isn't what all the noobs said is was - icy and bare. Also that there is easier terrain and it is not just an expert mountain.

 

[billski]

Are you guys planning on visiting early or late season? Better hope for heavy snowfall since there's no snowmaking, otherwise it likely will not be operating.

I'm OK with marginal snow conditions, I scratch around the woods quite a bit these days. A little hike wouldn't hurt, provided there aren't patrol shooing people away.

I'm like you, pull the trigger a day or two ahead. Mitt on a midweek powder day could be lots of fun.

 

[Angus]

I am a lower intermediate skier from CT who spends alot of time in NH in the winter around the Lakes Region. I got into skiing 3 years ago and try to get out 4-5 times a year.

My ski dollars going to Cannon will come at the expense of Waterville Valley or Gunstock, where I would usually go 2-3 times a year.

Check out Ragged too - similar to Gunstock but I like it better. Cannon and Waterville are similar timewise from exit 23 (New Hampton) given the long drive into WV as someone has noted previously.

 

[bobbutts]

First post here . I have been lurking for a while, really enjoying the pictures in this thread! Not looking to weigh in on the debate, I just find it fascinating that they are bringing the Mittersill area back from the dead and I am planning to visit Cannon for the first time this winter as a result. I am a lower intermediate skier from CT who spends alot of time in NH in the winter around the Lakes Region. I got into skiing 3 years ago and try to get out 4-5 times a year.

My ski dollars going to Cannon will come at the expense of Waterville Valley or Gunstock, where I would usually go 2-3 times a year. So count me as one of the projected 18,000

As a self-proclaimed "lower intermediate" level skier I'm interested in why un-groomed, all natural snow terrain is attractive to you?
Did you check out Loon's South Peak expansion? (HSQ with intermediate terrain). I think you should try Cannon for sure, but my bet is you prefer the old/existing lift-serviced terrain vs. Mitt

 

[Mapnut]

My ski dollars going to Cannon will come at the expense of Waterville Valley or Gunstock, where I would usually go 2-3 times a year. So count me as one of the projected 18,000

I'm thinking there's a source of skier days that are not necessarily at the expense of Loon and Waterville and Gunstock. There are probably weekend skiers who don't go on every available day because they know it will be crowded. If they hear about Cannon's expansion, decide to try it and find Cannon less crowded, they might ski more days.

 

[CTNoob]

As a self-proclaimed "lower intermediate" level skier I'm interested in why un-groomed, all natural snow terrain is attractive to you?
Did you check out Loon's South Peak expansion? (HSQ with intermediate terrain). I think you should try Cannon for sure, but my bet is you prefer the old/existing lift-serviced terrain vs. Mitt

I got a taste of ungroomed, pretty deep powder at Gunstock one night during a snowstorm in Feb 09 and it was very challenging to me. I was sort of a mess, LOL. But I liked it. Plus, I want to make that boot traverse of legend and yore. It all just sounds wicked cool to me.

You're probably right about liking the main mountain better. We'll see.

As for Loon, I've always wanted to go there, but my impression is its pretty crowded, and there are never any deals there. WV does twofers and Gunstock does midweek deals. (I won't ski either one on a Saturday).

 

[CTNoob]

Check out Ragged too - similar to Gunstock but I like it better. Cannon and Waterville are similar timewise from exit 23 (New Hampton) given the long drive into WV as someone has noted previously.

Thanks - I've heard good things about Ragged mostly from this board. The only drawback could be, Gunstock is 15 minutes from Laconia (inlaws house where I stay), and Ragged is probably 40 or so. I'll have to be on the lookout for deals there.