Mittersill snowmaking

[witch hobble]

..........................simple request before the debate goes any further...................................PLEASE don't use the phrase "win-win"!!!!!!!..................... it implies that there are only two ways to think about tough questions. It is an annoying rhetorical device and pet peeve.....................................



I tried to needle threecy on his opinion of this in a snowjournal thread over the winter. He basically said that if FSC can raise this amount of money so quickly, why can't they lease the whole durn place???

Carry on. I'm not so sure this thread will have the endurance of some of the other Cannon ones though.

 

[SIKSKIER]

And more from Bode

WH won't like this but DeVivo uses the win-win.




FRANCONIA — Olympic gold medalist and World Cup Champion Bode Miller of Easton was among the skiers and tourism officials expressing hope that private fundraising campaign now being launched will create new opportunities at state-owned Mittersill and Cannon.

Calling it a “game-changer” for ski racing and public access to Mittersill, Miller of Easton said Sunday night that the new training venue planned at Mittersill will offer athletes from across the East and the United States a superb new venue.

“It will also provide excellent free skiing for the public on a mountain that has not been open for 30 years, until recently,” Miller said.

The Franconia Ski Club and Holderness School officials confirmed they are working to raise an estimated $2.5 million for snowmaking, a T-bar surface lift, and trail improvements for Mittersill.

Mittersill, adjacent to state-operated Cannon Mountain, has been in mothballs since the 1980s after private operations there ceased.

It was recently merged with state operations, and in 2011 a $2 million chairlift was installed.

While there was plentiful natural snowfall in 2011 and the lift operated, the lack of snowmaking this year meant it was used about a half dozen days.

When complete, Mittersill's Baron's Run trail would be re-contoured and equipped with new snowmaking equipment and become an internationally certified Giant Slalom and Super G race course, while the Taft Slope on the center of Mittersill would become a slalom and GS hill with a dedicated surface lift and potentially lighting.

When not being used for races, the trails with snowmaking would be open for public use. Other trails on the mountain would still remain “natural” for back country ski enthusiasts, but the lift would run more than it did last year.

Karl Stone, marketing director for Ski NH, the statewide organization representing the ski industry, said “the past winter reinforces how vital a powerful snowmaking infrastructure is. This improvement would be another step forward for Cannon Mountain and New Hampshire skiing in general,” he said.

Stone added that opportunities to expand available ski terrain in New England are very limited.

“This improvement would help to ensure recently re-opened Mittersill would be regularly available to guests. This is an exciting prospect for Cannon Mountain and New Hampshire skiing in general,” he said.

John DeVivo, general manager at Cannon, called it a potentially positive public-private partnership that would be a “win-win” for everyone.

He noted it would still need to be approved likely by the Governor and Executive Council as a gift to the state and there would be a number of other permits required.

Officials at both FSC and Holderness said they are going forward with fundraising and exploring what would need to be done, cautioning the plan is in the early stages.

Miller's family is still involved in FSC and his Turtle Ridge Foundation annually hosts a sell-out fundraiser fun race at Cannon, which this year had to be cancelled for lack of snow.

Miller is considered one of the best ski racers in the world. He got his start at Cannon, where his mother Jo, worked. He still lives and calls home Franconia and the Easton Valley on the Western edge of the White Mountains.

 

[Johnskiismore]

So, before Mittersill 'opened' I told a buddy that snowmaking would be installed within five years. He said no way they're going to keep it natural, blah, blah, blah. And we bet. Mind you I said I would NEVER ride the Mittersill double....... that proclamation collapsed first POW day in 2011 and I now love that chair.

So, Keith, you owe me $100!! Sully was witness at the bar! Oh, alcohol and betting:beer:

 

[riverc0il]

..........................simple request before the debate goes any further...................................PLEASE don't use the phrase "win-win"!!!!!!!..................... it implies that there are only two ways to think about tough questions. It is an annoying rhetorical device and pet peeve.....................................

Sorry that phrase offends your rhetorical sensibilities. I don't see how it could imply there are only two ways of thinking about something. There could be many possibilities that satisfy two parties. It just means that a given solution does not have to negatively effect one party to satisfy the other party. I presented the argument as a counter to DHS proposing that this would be a negative for skiers to Cannon not being able to access a trail closed to racing, theoretically an entire "pod" of Baron's is the only thing available off the double.

 

[riverc0il]

Personally, I can't wait until snow making goes in. Then they will be forced to retract the "backcountry area" wording.

Oh wait, that didn't work when the double went in. Probably won't happen with snow making either. Cannon may have the only lift serviced, snow making, and grooming backcountry in the world.

:beer:

 

[witch hobble]

Sorry that phrase offends your rhetorical sensibilities.

They are quite fragile. :beer:

I would prefer "everybody wins", which I think is what is being implied. But that is far easier to call bullshit on. "win-win" means what? That any two (or the two most vocal or powerful) interested parties both win? And all else can just deal with it? I find it is most often used to soften a hard sell.

But, hair splitting digressions aside, this surface lift would be going parallel to the current double? But shorter? To access the race training? Not up Taft like up the saddle?

 

[thetrailboss]

I would think that the T-Bar would follow the route of the former T-Bar(s).

 

[riverc0il]

I would think that the T-Bar would follow the route of the former T-Bar(s).

I think that would be the best overall idea but it doesn't sound like it based on the article. It sounds like they want to run the T-bar up either the open slope to the left or right of the existing double. Given that its purpose is night racing, it makes logistic sense to build the t-bar right next to the race trail for lighting purposes. Building it up the former T-bar line would work well for the overall mountain but wouldn't work at all from an evening racing perspective.

 

[deadheadskier]

. I presented the argument as a counter to DHS proposing that this would be a negative for skiers to Cannon not being able to access a trail closed to racing, theoretically an entire "pod" of Baron's is the only thing available off the double.

No, I said it would be a negative if BOTH snowmaking trails were closed for racing and there wasn't enough natural to open any of the other terrain. The only thing remotely close to an entire trail pod being shut down for racing that I can think of in New England is Pico with the Little Pico Triple and B slope. The difference being they don't have snowmaking on A slope.

Overall, I think having a couple trails over on Mittersill with snowmaking is a good thing for Cannon. Now that the lift is there, might as well put it to good use.

 

[thetrailboss]

No, I said it would be a negative if BOTH snowmaking trails were closed for racing and there wasn't enough natural to open any of the other terrain. The only thing remotely close to an entire trail pod being shut down for racing that I can think of in New England is Pico with the Little Pico Triple and B slope. The difference being they don't have snowmaking on A slope.

Overall, I think having a couple trails over on Mittersill with snowmaking is a good thing for Cannon. Now that the lift is there, might as well put it to good use.

Well iirc A Slope does have snowmaking but they haven't used it in, oh, 15 years or so. Now that I think of it, that's pretty much the same as no snowmaking at all.

 

[Cannonball]

Slightly tangential....
At some point as this moves forward, it would be good to hear from the leasing proponents on how they would view these privately raised funds. Will they say "see, Cannon can't be profitable because they need someone else to raise the money for them and they don't account for it properly" or will they say "great job Cannon management for figuring out a way to avoid further state spending."? It would just be good to know up front instead of arguing over it after the fact and having it potentially add fuel and confusion to leasing proposals. Could FSC or other funders stipulate conditions about lease/no-lease in the terms of their contribution?

 

[riverc0il]

I can't see the pro-lease argument making an example out of this. There aren't many areas out there that would invest millions into regrading two trails, new snow making, and a new lift just for a race group to have better training access (Le Massif is the only one I can think of). Some areas have widened trails for racing. But a multi-million dollar investment for very negative ROI? Private for profit areas would never do that. But they would surely take a gift in exchange for some exclusive practice time which is what Cannon is doing. I can't see this being used as a pro-lease argument. If anything, this is a sound business decision by Cannon. It makes an unreliable lift pod part of Cannon's opening strategy with no infrastructure investment.

 

[Puck it]

I would think that the T-Bar would follow the route of the former T-Bar(s).

Taft Slope is to the right of the chair lift in this map and looks like it ends at the top of the old longer T-bar. I would think this would wher it will be located since it will a GS training trail. It can't be lower.

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: ski areas investing in trail, snowmaking, and lift infrastructure for racing.

One example is Burke. In 1994, before going under, ownership extended Warren's Way and extended the Poma for BMA. They also added more snowmaking to the top of it.

The Northern Star group built the Dippers and graded them for racing. That trail has snowmaking on it. Honestly though that trail was a dual purpose project because that is a main route on the east side and a racing trail.

So not quite the same, but along similar lines.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm not so sure this thread will have the endurance of some of the other Cannon ones though.

want me to kick it up a notch? According to facebook, the lease language in Cannon's Master Plan has been removed.

:lol:

https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain

 

[skiberg]

Well, I was wondering when this would hit the Forum. I have a lot of info about this project and I am happy to answer as many Q's about it as I can. It's still on the works but its coming together. A lot of various and interesting groups really want to make this happen. At this point I can probably tell you as much as I know without spilling the beans.

 

[witch hobble]

want me to kick it up a notch? According to facebook, the lease language in Cannon's Master Plan has been removed.

:lol:

https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain

Ha! JD is picking up what I'm laying down. He is now using win-win-win!!! Otherwise, he has a thoughtful response to one of the previous posts on the facebook page. I'm trying to figure out if he is putting me down by lumping me in as a "non competitive guest".

Ski-off??? :flame:

TFC facebook page: oddly empty.

 

[Boardguy]

If the project at Mittersill moves some race days from Burke I'm all for it. That would be a win win.

 

[Abubob]

So, before Mittersill 'opened' I told a buddy that snowmaking would be installed within five years. He said no way they're going to keep it natural, blah, blah, blah. And we bet. Mind you I said I would NEVER ride the Mittersill double....... that proclamation collapsed first POW day in 2011 and I now love that chair.

So, Keith, you owe me $100!! Sully was witness at the bar! Oh, alcohol and betting:beer:

Snowmaking in Mittersill was part of the master plan to reopen there from the beginning - before the chair was even installed - and before the land swap was even completed.

 

[skiberg]

I dont think its accurate to say it was part of any of Cannon's immediate plans. that would mean that FSC was involved in negotiating the land swap and had contact with Cannon to agree to place the snowmaking infrastructure at Mit. prior to the swap. That is not the case. Maybe it was a potential they considered, but Cannon had no short term plan to place snowmaking at Mit. without the assistance of FSC. Certainly after the past few years its evident that there needs to be some type of consistent snow cover on a few select areas of the h ill. Even though the snow was great in 10-11, Mit. was skied off in a day. I think last year even with the great snow they realized they had a problem based primarily on the shear increase in the number of skiers on Mit.