Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

[snowman]

I think this is the first time in my entire life that I've started a successful thread on any board. Cool. And now we have more posts than days in a leap year.

LOL! cough cough

 

[Newpylong]

Very good ideas there Miller. Never even thought about reconfiguring Snowshed at all.

 

[snowman]

Actually, there is a slight problem with that plan. 6 pack in snowshed and remove the HS quad and Doubles = yes. I'd also pick the best line using the fact you now only 1 lift. It would also allow them to come with a new "marque" lift at a relatively low cost as it would not need to be anywhere near the HP of anyone elses 6 pack to scale the mountain and I think the run is pretty short. This is where you run into problems moving the former high speed from there. It won't have the horse power, or appropriate towers for Snowdon making it next to useless for that cause. There's also the fact that I think it is a Yan (not sure how old it is) and anyone who would re-install a Yan is nuts.

 

[threecy]

There's also the fact that I think it is a Yan (not sure how old it is) and anyone who would re-install a Yan is nuts.

Not to defend Yan, but that's not really a fair statement - since the problem Yans have been modified, the only real issues wit reinstalls involve fixed grip lifts using chain counterweights.

 

[snowman]

Not to defend Yan, but that's not really a fair statement - since the problem Yans have been modified, the only real issues wit reinstalls involve fixed grip lifts using chain counterweights.

They're like MD-80's though. MD-80's are known for falling from the sky in death spirals from elevator screw problems. The problem has been fixed, but given the choice of an MD-80 or any other plane, no one choses to fly on or pilot one. Also, it being a Yan automatically means it's damn near older than you, so it should be replaced just for that reason regardless of the make. It's poor business logic to re-fit and re-install a lift with 60-75% of it's life span gone. So, in addition to needing a new base terminal with a bigger motor, you need new towers to scale the different terrain, and the haul rope would be ready for replacement. The only thing you're really left with is a old top terminal and a bunch of chairs with modified grips that are getting on the age where they need metal fatigue inspections. I think it would actually cost them less to sell it as-is to some sucker with an even lower vert and run that can baby it and dump the money into a new unit. They could then advertise a NEW lift as opposed to a moved lift (even if not much of it is left) which is worth a lot of $$$ in itself.

P.S. Did you figure out who the Skipper is yet? :razz:

 

[threecy]

They're like MD-80's though. MD-80's are known for falling from the sky in death spirals from elevator screw problems. The problem has been fixed, but given the choice of an MD-80 or any other plane, no one choses to fly on or pilot one. Also, it being a Yan automatically means it's damn near older than you, so it should be replaced just for that reason regardless of the make. It's poor business logic to re-fit and re-install a lift with 60-75% of it's life span gone. So, in addition to needing a new base terminal with a bigger motor, you need new towers to scale the different terrain, and the haul rope would be ready for replacement. The only thing you're really left with is a old top terminal and a bunch of chairs with modified grips that are getting on the age where they need metal fatigue inspections. I think it would actually cost them less to sell it as-is to some sucker with an even lower vert and run that can baby it and dump the money into a new unit. They could then advertise a NEW lift as opposed to a moved lift (even if not much of it is left) which is worth a lot of $$$ in itself.

P.S. Did you figure out who the Skipper is yet? :razz:

I will conceed that high speed quads aren't often reinstalled (especially Yans), but a reinstalled lift will be fine for years, as problem spots that may have existed are cleaned up. Most skiers don't know a Yan from a wicket, so the MD-80 comparison doesn't really ring true. I should also clarify that I'm not talking about Snowshed in particular, since that lift has so little vertical - rather, Yans in general. And no, you don't have to buy new towers for a new location - very few new towers if any are needed for a reinstall, unless the whole lift was a direct insert vs. bolted (a lot of Yans are poured, but some are bolted also).

 

[millerm277]

Killington is well known in the past for making some interesting frankinlifts as chairlift.org describes them, and I would guess they could probably make it work.

The current Snowdon lift is using a Poma top drive and chairs, a Yan bottom terminal, and modified old towers from an former lift.

 

[JimG.]

"It's ALIVE!"

I see these threads have taken on a life of their own. And the quality of discussion has taken only momentary dips in relevance.

Good stuff. I really hate it when work takes away from my online discussion time.

 

[thetrailboss]

I agree, Jim. Back on a good discussion...very good.

 

[JimG.]

I didn't realize how old alot of Killington's lifts are. I never really gave it alot of thought. If I had it would have dawned on me that this is just another area that ASC neglected for years. So of course the lifts all need work.

So now I realize more fully the demands by Killington regulars that more investment is needed. And I'm sure POWDR knew what they were getting into regarding the infrastructure.

So I wonder what the long term plan looks like. At this point in my education in this matter, I have to think that long term means nothing longer than 3-5 years out. Tough.

 

[threecy]

I didn't realize how old alot of Killington's lifts are. I never really gave it alot of thought. If I had it would have dawned on me that this is just another area that ASC neglected for years. So of course the lifts all need work.

So now I realize more fully the demands by Killington regulars that more investment is needed. And I'm sure POWDR knew what they were getting into regarding the infrastructure.

So I wonder what the long term plan looks like. At this point in my education in this matter, I have to think that long term means nothing longer than 3-5 years out. Tough.

Their lifts are old, but one thing to consider is that lift technology is also old - look at a mid 80s fixed grip and compare it to a 2006 - while there are certainly advances in the computer systems, much of the design is consistent. Lifts are mainly replaced due to bad location, obsolete design (ie lattice Muellers with power tower spacing, old lifts without overhead drives, lifts with AC drives, etc.), or lack of capacity. I'd argue for the first and the last in that statement at Killington, but in reality most of their lifts should be able to continue for years to come with adequate maintenance.

 

[JimG.]

Their lifts are old, but one thing to consider is that lift technology is also old - look at a mid 80s fixed grip and compare it to a 2006 - while there are certainly advances in the computer systems, much of the design is consistent. Lifts are mainly replaced due to bad location, obsolete design (ie lattice Muellers with power tower spacing, old lifts without overhead drives, lifts with AC drives, etc.), or lack of capacity. I'd argue for the first and the last in that statement at Killington, but in reality most of their lifts should be able to continue for years to come with adequate maintenance.

Agreed, we need look no further than MRG...refurbishing a 50 year old single lift.

I'm thinking that a few lift realignments might be coming in the near future. I'm sure the maintenance and relocations cost money. And I have to assume that it's in the budget somewhere at some time.

I would think that at some point before the season gets much nearer that POWDR will start to detail what they will do for the coming season to some degree. I am very surprised at this point how mum they are, although they do have a very tough crowd to please.

 

[thetrailboss]

Mum is the word. But why? Probably because Killington-Pico is such a HUGE place and is tough to run. They probably have to account for everything, do inspections, make plans, etc. Now ASC probably did some of that for them in the closing (final accounting, etc.), but knowing ASC POWDR and SP Lands are probably double-checking everything and "discovering" other problems.

Killington regulars who :argue: need to remember that their relationship with the mountain and their knowledge is much longer than that of SP Land and POWDR, who just stepped in the door in February 2007. So it will take some time to "catch up" on certain things....

 

[JimG.]

Mum is the word. But why? Probably because Killington-Pico is such a HUGE place and is tough to run. They probably have to account for everything, do inspections, make plans, etc. Now ASC probably did some of that for them in the closing (final accounting, etc.), but knowing ASC POWDR and SP Lands are probably double-checking everything and "discovering" other problems.

Killington regulars who :argue: need to remember that their relationship with the mountain and their knowledge is much longer than that of SP Land and POWDR, who just stepped in the door in February 2007. So it will take some time to "catch up" on certain things....

Good point...if they trusted ASC at all during the sale, that must have evaporated with the lifetime pass issue. POWDR is smart if they are going over everything with a fine tooth comb.

 

[thetrailboss]

And also I think there is apprehension on the part of the K Community because this is the first time (probably ever) that Killington is NOT a public company and is privately held. This equals less disclosure as to how the business is operating, etc.

Now IIRC Killington MAY have been privately held by LBO from 1996-1997 before ASC went public....

 

[millerm277]

Killington regulars who :argue: need to remember that their relationship with the mountain and their knowledge is much longer than that of SP Land and POWDR, who just stepped in the door in February 2007. So it will take some time to "catch up" on certain things....

That is certainly true, which in a way makes it more painful for us to watch, because most of us know how some of their recent decisions are likely to work out, and we also remember when the mountain was in better shape and was making money with a season that went until June...

 

[snowman]

I will conceed that high speed quads aren't often reinstalled (especially Yans), but a reinstalled lift will be fine for years, as problem spots that may have existed are cleaned up. Most skiers don't know a Yan from a wicket, so the MD-80 comparison doesn't really ring true. I should also clarify that I'm not talking about Snowshed in particular, since that lift has so little vertical - rather, Yans in general. And no, you don't have to buy new towers for a new location - very few new towers if any are needed for a reinstall, unless the whole lift was a direct insert vs. bolted (a lot of Yans are poured, but some are bolted also).

I think it was a really good comparison, because I'd say an equal percentage users don't know the difference between and MD-80 and a 777. HOWEVER, it only takes a few knowing and a conversation with a person on the seat next to you who does know, on either, to make you aware that this is one lift/plane you'ld rather not be on. Someone else here mentioned it is mess of parts from various manufacturers anyway and the towers pre-date the Yan, meaning they must be 40 years old. We have a 20 year old fixed grip doppi at our area. It sure doesn't seem like it's 20 years old, and I'd have to say it's pretty much identical to what doppi would install new now. I'd re-install that somewhere. However, the Yan is much more complicated, looks older and is a lift designed by a company that is out of business. It's also been monkeyed around with by everyone and their dog. You also keep ignoring the fact that you can't take a lift with no vertical and dump it on a much greater pitch because the drive doesn't have the HP to make it perform either. The drive terminal is the most major expense, if you need to replace that, and the rest of what you've got is mis-matched crap, you need to replace it. Sell it to some sucker and count your blessings I say.

 

[JimG.]

Sell it to some sucker and count your blessings I say.

I have a funny feeling that a few ASC principles thought that way too.

 

[snowman]

I have a funny feeling that a few ASC principles thought that way too.

Ha ha ha ha ha. So true! Now I'm saying sell the bits and pieces to a sucker even lower in the food chain :razz:

 

[thetrailboss]

Yan lifts, for the most part, now have become Poma-Leitners...at least the HSQ's that is. S-K-I was into Yan fixed grips. Something was said that they used to use a chain for the tensioning system? How did that work? :blink: