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Domeskier

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the problem with that one is having a singles line for a double chair. if the only groups are doubles and quads breaking up in to 2s, then of course the singles would just pair up. stupid line is stupid. racer kids still suck.

Yeah, these sucky racer kids are doing exactly what the mountain wants in this instance. They want to pair up singles to prevent half-empty chairs from going up the line. Unless a single gets in the doubles line for some reason, they will have to take two people from the singles line to make a chair. I guess the risk to the sucky racer kids is that the liftie pulls one of them out to pair up with the single in front of them.

Not a bad system for the goal, I guess. I don't go out of my way to pair-up with someone on a doubles line when I'm skiing alone. This would be a good way to prevent me from wasting a seat. I guess the other way is to force people to pair up before they get in the line. I suspect that would be a much harder system to police. I can see someone getting bent out of shape when doubles abuse this type of line, however.
 

Jully

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I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding. The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.

Yes. This.
 

Smellytele

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Yeah, these sucky racer kids are doing exactly what the mountain wants in this instance. They want to pair up singles to prevent half-empty chairs from going up the line. Unless a single gets in the doubles line for some reason, they will have to take two people from the singles line to make a chair. I guess the risk to the sucky racer kids is that the liftie pulls one of them out to pair up with the single in front of them.

Not a bad system for the goal, I guess. I don't go out of my way to pair-up with someone on a doubles line when I'm skiing alone. This would be a good way to prevent me from wasting a seat. I guess the other way is to force people to pair up before they get in the line. I suspect that would be a much harder system to police. I can see someone getting bent out of shape when doubles abuse this type of line, however.

In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.
 

drjeff

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I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding. The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.

If you've ever looked right behind the tails of someone's skis who's carving some good turns and/or running a perfectly flat ski, with no skidding, from typically an elevated view pint, such as a lift on a sunny day with the right sun angle, you can see this evidence of the small layer of melting that occurs from base friction on the snow. This is why ski wax is hydrophobic in nature, to keep the water from adhering to the surface of the ski and dramatically increasing the adhesion between the ski base and that layer of water.

Since the vast majority of people on the hill are skidding, not clean carving their turns and/or running on a perfectly flat ski, most folks won't leave any "evidence" of this thin layer of melting that does occur.

The 2 main times when most folks are aware of the effects that this melting has on how a ski runs over the snow, is when it's either REALLY cold out, and skis often feel really "sticky" against the snow as that micro layer of water can practically flash freeze to the ski base at low speeds (think hiking to the lift on a flat) or on warm days and/or days with really wet snow falling (or coming out of the guns) as the amount of water creating adhesion to the ski base is just too great
 

Jully

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If you've ever looked right behind the tails of someone's skis who's carving some good turns and/or running a perfectly flat ski, with no skidding, from typically an elevated view pint, such as a lift on a sunny day with the right sun angle, you can see this evidence of the small layer of melting that occurs from base friction on the snow. This is why ski wax is hydrophobic in nature, to keep the water from adhering to the surface of the ski and dramatically increasing the adhesion between the ski base and that layer of water.

Since the vast majority of people on the hill are skidding, not clean carving their turns and/or running on a perfectly flat ski, most folks won't leave any "evidence" of this thin layer of melting that does occur.

The 2 main times when most folks are aware of the effects that this melting has on how a ski runs over the snow, is when it's either REALLY cold out, and skis often feel really "sticky" against the snow as that micro layer of water can practically flash freeze to the ski base at low speeds (think hiking to the lift on a flat) or on warm days and/or days with really wet snow falling (or coming out of the guns) as the amount of water creating adhesion to the ski base is just too great

Precisely. I don't know anything about ice skating, I've never even done it, but this is how skis slide more or less.
 

BenedictGomez

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If it isn't pressure, then what would cause melting?

Kinetic energy.

Now don't ask me anything more complex than that. I had to get A's in all my biology & chemistry classes so I could get B's in my physics classes.
 

Glenn

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This thread was purposefully titled ladies and gentleman.

I should have Photoshopped the picture to make it black and white and added a few old tyme NYers standing around idle. For prosperity's sake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bumpsis

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Guys, seriously, it's a myth. The pressure created by an ice skater is ten times less than is required to melt the ice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-bradley/theory-under-pressure-ska_b_2175389.html

Think about it. If every ski was melting the snow, we would see a sheet of blue ice on every trail by the end of the day.

I'm not really sure if you're joking but it is a fact that heavy skier traffic will glaze up a trail. We've all seen that. That is especially true of spots where the ski/snowboard traffic is concentrated and a lot of people skid through a steeper section glazing it up.

Also, similar phenomenon happens to snow when a hard packed snow is subjected to heavy foot sliding action. When I was a kid, we lived where snow play meant making a sidewalk "ice slide". A horde of kids would slide just on their shoes across a section of a snowy sidewalk and in no time transform it into an increasing longer horizontal slide, usually 5 yards long or longer, especially if there was even a hint of a slope. You would take a running starting and using the built up momentum slide on your feet down the side walk. It was all done with our shoes, no skates or metal of any kind. White packed snow would be transformed into a black ice slick in no time. It was awesome fun for us kids. I'm guessing that it was the friction of shoes against the snow and all that kinetic energy that was melting the snow and transforming it into ice.
 

VTKilarney

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Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.
 

BenedictGomez

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Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.

Mittens are warmer than gloves, it primarily has to do with surface area (I still wouldn't be caught dead wearing mittens).
 

Domeskier

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In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.

Agreed - their behavior was boorish. However, the resort seems to be encouraging the behavior by having a singles line at a double chair where they will pretty much always have to pair up two singles from the singles line because there generally aren't going to be any singles in the doubles line to pair them up with.
 

JimG.

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Fascinating how this thread has evolved into a physics class/race kid bash.

And a return of the dis.
 

fbrissette

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Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.

Snow melting under skis and skates is a problem that has been studied and solved a long time ago. There is a relatively large body of theoretical and experimental work on this topic. Frictional heating (and not pressure heating) is the main cause for the formation of a thin film of meltwater at the ski contact.

Most of the stuff is behind a paywall but here's a reasonably good open access recent paper.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11249-009-9476-9

Anybody who argues that gloves are warmer than mittens is an idiot.
 

Hawk

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In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.

So the tried and true method of resolving singles in the double line is how they do it at Castlerock at Sugarbush. Someone will ski up and yell "any Singles" if there are then they pair up. If not then they get at the end of the line and wait for the next single to ski up. You very rarely see one person on the Castlerock Double chair.

Racer kids are fine. The generalization of those kids here on this board is pretty unfair. The commitment to become a good racer is very hard and I for one could not deal with the long hours of training. Some of these kids will became the next American champions in Alpine skiing like Mikaela Shiffrin so I cut them some slack. There are other groups on the mountain that piss me off more. I will leave it at that.

Mittens are warmer than gloves. Fingers bunched together are absolutely warmer than separated fingers. I only use my expedition Marmot mittens when it is 10-20 below zero.

Racers leaving skis on the ground to make sure they stay the right temp is a fabrication made up so they have an excuse when people call them out for leaving their skis. They should do like me and just ignore the person calling them out.

Also that dude in the video is awesome. LOL
 
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