Ski area closing dates 2008

[AdironRider]

Man, everyone in here is complaining. You have it good. Jackson Hole is going to close on April 6th, with no possible option to stay open later due to the lease agreement, with probably a 120ish inch base. Hows that sound?

 

[billski]

Man, everyone in here is complaining.

Whining is endemic to this group (I am included) whenever it rains. We just get beat up too much with temperature fluctuations, a fate that JH doesn't get. JH gets predictable conditions, one where you can advance plan and be fairly certain you'll get the goods. Not here.

 

[snow*angel]

Magic april 15th rumored

 

[salsgang]

Saddleback is extending their season through April 20th. I read on a Sugarloaf board that they are going into May.

 

[drjeff]

Man, everyone in here is complaining. You have it good. Jackson Hole is going to close on April 6th, with no possible option to stay open later due to the lease agreement, with probably a 120ish inch base. Hows that sound?

Exactly, Alta, which currently has a 145" base BEFORE this weekends series of storms hits which have forcasters thinking another 3 to 6 FEET could fall, will close daily operations on April 13th, and then open up the following weekend only before closing the lifts for the season April 20th with likely well over 10 feet of base over the whole mountain per the lease agreement with the US Forest Service

 

[loafer89]

Even though we cannot compare to the massive snowfalls that they get out West, Saddleback closed last year with easily 10' of base on the upper mountain and at least 5' at the base.

 

[180]

Don't forget that Hunter is staying open till 5pm on Friday, Sturday and Sunday till the end of the season.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Blue Mountain March 22nd..Barb the new owner is cheap..but Camelback is offering free lift tickets for season passholders from other mountains for the rest of the season...and they might stay open longer..Elk, Sno, and Big Boulder look to stay open into April..

 

[deadheadskier]

Man, everyone in here is complaining. You have it good. Jackson Hole is going to close on April 6th, with no possible option to stay open later due to the lease agreement, with probably a 120ish inch base. Hows that sound?

um no - YOU have it good. I'd gladly trade the 500+ inches you've gotten to ski at Jackson this season over five months for our one month (maybe) longer season of lift serviced in the East.


As frustrating as it might be out West to see areas close, most all of the time those aren't decisions, but lease arrangements. Here in the East, most often mountains close for financial decisions when they have the right to close as late as the snowpack allows, i.e. Killington. That IMHO is far more frustrating.

Thankfully, it looks like a handful of areas all across New England are making a serious push for late April or into May operations. I'd love to see at least one area in VT, NH and ME operating in May making skiing more accessible for more people who still want it.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I feel so bad for the Jackson Hole people...not...Apparently it's dumping out there now..My next dream in life is to spend the entire ski season in Jackson Hole..not work out there..and live in a hotel..120 days in a row skiing my favorite mountain and eating lunch in the Casper lodge everyday..mmm 9 dollar Chili..lol

 

[MikeTrainor]

Thankfully, it looks like a handful of areas all across New England are making a serious push for late April or into May operations. I'd love to see at least one area in VT, NH and ME operating in May making skiing more accessible for more people who still want it.

I think you will if the snow holds

VT: Sugarbush
NH: Wildcat
ME: Sugarloaf

 

[deadheadskier]

I think you will if the snow holds

VT: Sugarbush
NH: Wildcat
ME: Sugarloaf

I was thinking along the same lines. I certainly hope so as late March through Mid-April work is tying up a lot of my normally available ski days.

 

[JasonE]

What major resort in the east makes a fortune? I think some will make a profit this year but if they reduced prices what would the balance sheet look like next year if the snow was not as good as this season?

I recognize that it's very costly to run a ski area, but I have to say that the ski industry is not taking the approach they need to take to turn the continuing downward spiral around. It's a pretty simple formula, really: How do you increase profits in the ski industry? Attract more skiers! How do you attract more skiers? Make things affordable for the average middle class family to start skiing!

I'm sorry, but skiing is an EXPENSIVE sport, and getting more and more pricey every year. An average family of four simply can't afford to ski anymore. It's why the number of skiers in this country have been declining for years.

You make skiing affordable again, people will start skiing again, and you'll have a larger customer base for your ski area. Larger customer base equals more skier visits which equals more money. I think anyone in retail or the restaurant business can tell you that volume is king - it doesn't matter what you charge, the more you sell the lower your margins can be to still make a profit.

Yeah, there might be a few lean years while you try to woo back all the people who've given up on the sport because of the cost (and try to attract new people who couldn't afford to try it in the first place), but after a few years I think you'd see that things would be much more profitable.

Look at golf - how many people golfed 20,30,40 years ago? Not very many, really. It was considered an elite sport for the wealthy. Then technology changed, equipment got cheaper (or, I should say that lower-end equipment became available - the high-end stuff is still outrageously expensive, but you can get low-end stuff at walmart for next to nothing, and that's very attractive to people), and golf courses started lowering their rates, introducing day rates (instead of requiring costly memberships), in many cases launched rates to play 9 holes instead of 18, and lifted most of their restrictions on attire and rules requirements (when's the last time you saw a golfer in August who wasn't wearing shorts? There was a time not that long ago that golfing in shorts would get you kicked out.) Driving ranges sprung up all over the place, which allowed people to practice the game without spending all the money to play on a course, thus making it more enjoyable when they actually got out there on the course and played. Golf is more popular now than it ever has been, and at least around me new courses are opening up every couple of years, existing courses are getting make-overs, and everyone is making a lot of money. And why? Because there is a customer base who is willing and actually able to pay to go play a round of golf. You pay $22 a person to play 18 holes (or $14 to play 9 holes) at my local golf club. Compare that to $49 to ski for the day at Wachusett (on a week day). And to golf, all I had to buy was a $100 set of clubs at walmart, and a $30 pair of cleats (and let's face it, even that isn't absolutely necessary). I can get a dozen golf balls at Job Lot for $5. To ski, it costs $49 or $59 every time you go (if you don't have a pass) and that's just at the local hill. The boots cost $200. The skis cost $300. Ski parka another $150. Snow pants $60. Hot Chili pants and shirts $50. Good quality gloves $60. Ski socks $14. Helmet $40. Oh... and a burger and a beer at my local golf course is $6.50, compared to around $12 at Wachusett.

In short, golf as a sport has become more popular primarily because it has become more accessible to more people. Skiing, on the other hand, has taken exactly the opposite course. Small community ski hills (the skiing equivalent of golf driving ranges) are virtually all closed and gone. Equipment costs go up and up and up every year (and no, you can't buy a $100 pair of skis at walmart). And rather than finding ways to reduce costs for people, the ski mountains that are left just keep raising prices. In the process, they've made it impossible for the average middle class family to actually afford to ski. They're putting themselves out of business and they don't even know it.

I absolutely love skiing, but I don't know how many years I'm going to be able to afford to do it. Once we have kids, I doubt we'll have the available money to buy the season passes anymore. And even without kids, my wife needs new boots next season and I have no idea where we'll come up with the money to buy them.

I have grave fear that the sport of skiing will end up dieing out, especially in New England, if ski areas can't reverse the upward spiral of escalating costs and find a way to make it appealing for the average family to take up skiing as a winter sport.

Jason

 

[deadheadskier]

You bring up a lot of good points Jason about how golf has made it more accesible to more people. Part of that is money and part of the appeal of golf to many is the same appeal as bowling (no offense to the golfers and bowlers), but just about anybody no matter how out of shape they are can participate in those sports. Skiing due to the athletic demands will always have a smaller audience to draw from nevermind plenty of people simply don't like the cold.

I agree it has gotten more and more expensive as a sport, but you still can do it relatively inexpensively if you're smart about it. I'm far from rich, I'd barely consider myself middle class. I have been able to make it out 14 times at an average of about $27 a lift ticket though. Honestly, the fuel needed to get to and from the mountain is a bigger expense for me. $27 isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than getting dinner at a nice restaurant by a long shot.

I don't think the mountains are lost on the concept of affordability though. Season passes at most areas in New England are cheaper today than they were ten years ago. Day tickets certainly are not, I'll give you that.

 

[Vortex]

Loon is posting april 21st now.

 

[Vinny]

Jason brings up some great points about golf vs. skiing and it's an interesting discussion itself.

One very big advantage that golf has over skiing (aside form not having to rely on snow) is the demographics. Many people begin golfing in earnest at later ages when they are more financially stable. Plenty of people I know started golfing in their late 30's, early 40's, and later. Due to the greater athletic requirements that is a real rarity in skiing. It's real tough for a young family to afford skiing, so they never get started.

Also, ease of access, at least in my area, is orders of magnitude easier for golf. It's an easy sport to just "give it a try". Just head out to any par 3 course within less than a half hour drive, rent a couple of clubs, and you can see if you like it for a reasonable price and little gas. Try doing that with skiing on a whim.

Something that may help are more inexpensive "learn to ski programs". If ski resorts would have more dirt cheap learn to ski programs it would do them and the sport a lot of long term good. As we all know, once you're hooked, you're hooked for good.

 

[hiroto]

Something that may help are more inexpensive "learn to ski programs". If ski resorts would have more dirt cheap learn to ski programs it would do them and the sport a lot of long term good. As we all know, once you're hooked, you're hooked for good.

I thought ski areas already heavily discount the package of lesson + rental + daypass as beginner packages. This one at Pats is great.

Starter Special:
For the first time skier or snowboarder ages 6 and up.
Includes beginner group lesson, rental equipment, and full day lift ticket to Valley area. This is the package that enters you in the Pats Peak and Waterville Valley Passport Program.*

*Passport Program: Award Winning, All Inclusive, designed for Beginners.
You'll receive a Passport from your instructor during the first lesson. Ski 4 days and take lessons, and you end up with a Season Pass good for the rest of the season at both Pats Peak and Waterville Valley!

Starter Special (Anyday/Anytime)
$68

 

[Geoff]

Jason brings up some great points about golf vs. skiing and it's an interesting discussion itself.

I'd point out:

A golf course can handle maybe 350 customers per day. Tee times are staggered by 9 or 10 minutes so you can only service around 25 golfers per hour and 35 an hour is pretty much the limit. You only have 12 hours of daylight

A decent sized ski area can handle 5,000 to 20,000 customers in a day. The scale is completely different. You have a small number of large businesses. Nobody wants to bother with the tiny local mom & pop hill which is why NELSAP is stuffed full of defunct ski areas.

 

[tcharron]

I recognize that it's very costly to run a ski area, but I have to say that the ski industry is not taking the approach they need to take to turn the continuing downward spiral around. It's a pretty simple formula, really: How do you increase profits in the ski industry? Attract more skiers! How do you attract more skiers? Make things affordable for the average middle class family to start skiing!
I'm sorry, but skiing is an EXPENSIVE sport, and getting more and more pricey every year. An average family of four simply can't afford to ski anymore. It's why the number of skiers in this country have been declining for years.

There is actual evidence that backs up the concept that by driving costs down, you can actually improve profits. I'm sure someone else on the boards will remember the name of the ski area, but in 1998 they where the first ski area in the country to do a drop of a season pass from like 600$ to 199$. They ended up increasing profits by roughly 2 million over the prior year.

 

[KingM]

Record breaker for what? Here are some stats. In Vermont the record days were in the late 1980's with 5.2m visits...last season it was 3.8m. Kmart had 1m skier visits 4 years ago, last year it was below 750,000. Do you really believe that a resort which their business has been reduced by over 25% can reduce prices? This lose of customers happened during the time kmart offered those cheap A41 all-east passes. How do you explain that?

We're not quite the same thing at the inn, but last year was the worst year of the five we've been here, given that it was a bloodbath in December and January. Our first winter(2003/2004) had the highest occupancy. I have no idea what the resorts will do this year compared to four years ago, but it will certainly be a lot higher than last year. In other words, it was the weather that sent skier visits crashing last year, not a rapid decline in the industry. (I do think there has been erosion since the 80s, from what I've read.)

Nowadays it takes a banner season just to break even for many resorts. This has been a good season with consistant snow and most resorts will beat last year's numbers.which was a very poor year businesswise despite the great snow after mid-Feb. What major resort in the east makes a fortune? I think some will make a profit this year but if they reduced prices what would the balance sheet look like next year if the snow was not as good as this season?

I think this is true. Even with great weather every year it would be a tough business. They need to make enough money in 3 1/2 months to pay for the place year round, plus continue to develop the mountain.

The other thing to note is that energy costs are skyrocketing and ski resorts use a lot of it. Just like almost anything else in the country, general inflation needs to be pushed along to customers sooner or later or businesses will go under.