So how did that Wildcat/Attitash calamity play out?

[riverc0il]

People don't bring this up very often.

Because it isn't really an honest assessment. A ski area could be open and loose a lot more money than if they were closed. There are different levels of loosing money. That is pretty much the economic decision here... will you loose even more money by being open than if you just shut down and lost money on those things that you'll loose money on not matter what.

But whatev to the realistic argument. Wildcat not going long into April is pretty pathetic. I think the weekend they picked to close is the Inferno. No surprise there. But given the amount of traffic heading that way, surprising they don't go weekends only after that. Cat is a great spring skiing mountain, a shame they'll shut down so soon. But no surprise. Peaks isn't playing the first to open / last to close game. The old Wildcat management went for broke on such things when conditions allowed.

 

[deadheadskier]

Because it isn't really an honest assessment. A ski area could be open and loose a lot more money than if they were closed. There are different levels of loosing money. That is pretty much the economic decision here... will you loose even more money by being open than if you just shut down and lost money on those things that you'll loose money on not matter what.

which is about energy costs to spin a lift, not staffing. That was my point. If a mountain employs zero based staffing, then the only expense is running a lift, a grill and maintaining the bathroom. The employees (salaried management) are being paid anyways and in theory should be able to handle all operational functions of the mountain.

I bet a place like Wildcat could operate with 10 staff members. 1 person at the ticket window, a few running the lift, a few patrol, 1 person flipping burgers, 1 pouring beer and 1 person rotating through all the functions to give people a break. I'd be curious to know what the cost of their HSQ is to run at just a moderate speed.

 

[riverc0il]

Let's assume the average hourly wage of those 10 staff members is $10 an hour. So staffing costs (assuming no grooming over night) would be around $800 or so (give or take, let's assume it averages out to 8 hours per person, some working more some working less). Then you need to add in electricity for lift, lodge, and other buildings. I don't know what that would cost.

So where is the revenue going to come from to offset those expenses? Not season ticket holders or folks with vouchers. They will need to offer discounted pricing as well to attract guests. F&B is a great profit center and can't be over looked. But I bet it would be close. Basically I am suggesting that these calculations have already been made by management and they don't think they can do it. Otherwise, why wouldn't they?

I am as bummed to see places close as much as anyone else. I think some places are better suited to getting the late season dollars than others (at least on the weekends). But I also know that if its close, you pull the plug.

The "unknown" factor here is impressing potential pass holders. Both new and older ones on the fence. A lot of folks have gone over to Boyne because they know Boyne is going to be first to open and last to close. How much is that worth? A place like Jay gets that too. I've been at Jay late season and it can be a ghost town sometimes really late. Cool for the skier but I have done the math and I know they were loosing money. But they were impressing people that might reup and sign up for next year. There is something to be said for that type of buzz.

 

[snoseek]

There is definately value to a long season. People are willing to drop more monry on a pass for a long season, even if they're not going to ski it all. I would take the mentality of passholders not adding money out of the equation. Plus many will pay top dollar for beer/food. Ditch the cafeteria and bar, selling food off the grill and pouring draft @ 20% cost of goods will make a profit. Every salaried employee should be contributing to operations. There is shitloads of money to be trimmed. Do that and finish strong and late and folks will be lining up to drop big money on a pass

 

[Cannonball]

Let's assume the average hourly wage of those 10 staff members is $10 an hour. So staffing costs (assuming no grooming over night) would be around $800 or so (give or take, let's assume it averages out to 8 hours per person, some working more some working less). Then you need to add in electricity for lift, lodge, and other buildings. I don't know what that would cost.

So where is the revenue going to come from to offset those expenses? Not season ticket holders or folks with vouchers. They will need to offer discounted pricing as well to attract guests. F&B is a great profit center and can't be over looked. But I bet it would be close. Basically I am suggesting that these calculations have already been made by management and they don't think they can do it. Otherwise, why wouldn't they?

I am as bummed to see places close as much as anyone else. I think some places are better suited to getting the late season dollars than others (at least on the weekends). But I also know that if its close, you pull the plug.

The "unknown" factor here is impressing potential pass holders. Both new and older ones on the fence. A lot of folks have gone over to Boyne because they know Boyne is going to be first to open and last to close. How much is that worth? A place like Jay gets that too. I've been at Jay late season and it can be a ghost town sometimes really late. Cool for the skier but I have done the math and I know they were loosing money. But they were impressing people that might reup and sign up for next year. There is something to be said for that type of buzz.

It's an interesting discussion. We were debating the same thing at Cannon on Monday. There couldn't have been more than 50 people on the mountain. I assume a majority of those were pass holders. They had 4 lifts spinning. Plus parking attendants, ticket sellers, cafe workers, etc. Tickets were 2fer. I don't know much about operating costs but it seemed fairly obvious that they were running at a loss. At first I thought "they should just shut down" but then I realized how pissed I'd be as a pass holder. It would have made me reconsider future season passes. Right now mountains are also putting on the hard-sell for next years passes. So it seems like the late season primarily pays of in sales towards the following (and subsequent) years.

(I'm sure someone will point out Cannon's unique state-run situation and how that may influence staffing costs. But I think the example applies across the board.)

 

[deadheadskier]

Zero based staffing is all salaried management, so there is no additional payroll. The power in the lodge is going to be on anyways as those salaried management would be in the offices in the lodge if they were not working operationally.

The expense is pretty much running a lift, an outdoor gas grill and a portable draft beer station.

Let's just say it cost $2000 to run the Wildcat Express for the day at low speed. Call it an additional $1000 in other energy costs associated with extra use at the lodge and minimalist F&B operations. If 100 day ticket people show up at $30 a ticket, you break even without selling F&B.

To answer your question as to why wouldn't they do it? It depends if the profit that they could make is worth it to them to satisfy their customers. I could spend an hour each Saturday this summer mowing the neighbors lawn and make $20 each day. Would I do it? no

 

[EPB]

Zero based staffing is all salaried management, so there is no additional payroll. The power in the lodge is going to be on anyways as those salaried management would be in the offices in the lodge if they were not working operationally.

The expense is pretty much running a lift, an outdoor gas grill and a portable draft beer station.

Let's just say it cost $2000 to run the Wildcat Express for the day at low speed. Call it an additional $1000 in other energy costs associated with extra use at the lodge and minimalist F&B operations. If 100 day ticket people show up at $30 a ticket, you break even without selling F&B.

To answer your question as to why wouldn't they do it? It depends if the profit that they could make is worth it to them to satisfy their customers. I could spend an hour each Saturday this summer mowing the neighbors lawn and make $20 each day. Would I do it? no

Variable staffing costs could be very low, assuming salaried employees are used for the bulk of operations. I agree with you there, and that's what I thought you had meant in your previous post to which I replied. A couple of kegs, an outdoor grill and a cooler full of soda, could turn some pretty high margins in addition to the lift tickets, as you mentioned.

For arguments sake, $35 seems to be Peak's go-to discounted ticket rate, so in your hypothetical, the break even number could be even lower. I'm surprised that they aren't seriously considering operating the mountain on weekends with a bare bones staff for a number of reasons:

1) They're probably going to have the base to stay open until 4/24 or 5/1 the way things are going.
2) Wildcat has a reputation for great spring skiing, and late season turns would really play into their marketing campaign aimed to portray Wildcat as a rugged, skiers mountain.
3) Their competitors for Boston-area skiers, namely Boyne plans to open Sugarloaf on weekends as late as 5/15 pending ski-able conditions. This makes their season pass far more appealing than that of Peak. Granted, their season pass holders would not buy tickets, but might like a few cold ones and overpriced grilled items.

Personally, I think that staying open deep into April and beyond is good for consumer goodwill and creates positive PR. This is especially important to "skier's mountains" like Wildcat. Look no further than the good vibes surrounding Jay Peak's somewhat unexpected late season push last year (or perhaps the year before too).

It appears that Peak resorts is content to ignore customer backlash against their more ill-conceived ideas and policies. This certainly seems like a bad strategy to me. Sure, it will save money in the short run, but what effects will it have on future sales? Peak looks like they're well on their way toward positioning themselves as a second rate organization that operates would-be major players in New Hampshire/Maine skiing. Hopefully, they will prove me wrong, but they're headed down a slippery slope as far as I can tell.

 

[Angus]

I know someone said Wildcat planned to shut down 4/17 but I read and posted here a reference made on their photo of the day about ...paraphrasing "deep based and skiing into late April." I'm hoping they stay open late but I'd also note the trip report from Attitash last weekend that there was hardly a soul on the mtn - were they all at Wildcat? Probably not.

 

[deadheadskier]

well, they very well might have been. I skied Black on Friday. I drove by Wildcat on the way up to Sugarloaf. Around 2PM there was still a number of people there. At least 200 cars in the parking lot. I'd imagine there were considerably more over the weekend.

 

[drjeff]

which is about energy costs to spin a lift, not staffing. That was my point. If a mountain employs zero based staffing, then the only expense is running a lift, a grill and maintaining the bathroom. The employees (salaried management) are being paid anyways and in theory should be able to handle all operational functions of the mountain.

I bet a place like Wildcat could operate with 10 staff members. 1 person at the ticket window, a few running the lift, a few patrol, 1 person flipping burgers, 1 pouring beer and 1 person rotating through all the functions to give people a break. I'd be curious to know what the cost of their HSQ is to run at just a moderate speed.

You forgot one thing though. Grooming. No modern area will open up these days without sending cats out on the hill the night before 99% of the time. And typically then its not just one cat, but most, of their fleet. So even if you just on a skeleton budget have the 3rd shift grooming crew come in instead of both the 2nd and 3rd shift groming crew come in, you've got to pay the cat operators and then pay for the diesel to run the cats while they're on the hill too. Add another bunch of day tickets needing to be sold to cover costs to the mix, since its not likely that enough salaried staff will be proficient enough to operate a cat and produce a surface that guests will like

 

[john1200c]

You forgot one thing though. Grooming.

Agree but they could close down some of the mountain, say Bear Peak and only groom on Attitash side. Maybe only on weekends too. I dont think they have many skiers mid-week at this point....

 

[deadheadskier]

Jeff

It's spring skiing. Terrain the last couple of weekends of a season will be limited to a few trails at most areas and of those trails, not all of them get groomed. Take Killington's spring operation last season. You had Superstar (ungroomed), Upper Skylark (groomed), Lower Skylark (ungroomed) and Lower Bittersweet (groomed). You're telling me you need a fleet of groomers to groom one route down???? You don't think the Director of Mt Ops wouldn't be capable of grooming it? Heck it could be done 1st thing in the morning. Do you think most people skiing in late April and May are overly concerned with perfect cordoroy?

I told you SB used to run spring operations with salaried management only and was profitable. I'm not sure why you are arguing that hourly staff are needed.

 

[threecy]

If late season spring skiing is indeed profitable, why isn't everyone doing it?

There are a few areas that it can make sense for, but by and large, in today's ski industry, it's an operational loss and an unnecessary depreciation of assets.

 

[drjeff]

Jeff

It's spring skiing. Terrain the last couple of weekends of a season will be limited to a few trails at most areas and of those trails, not all of them get groomed. Take Killington's spring operation last season. You had Superstar (ungroomed), Upper Skylark (groomed), Lower Skylark (ungroomed) and Lower Bittersweet (groomed). You're telling me you need a fleet of groomers to groom one route down???? You don't think the Director of Mt Ops wouldn't be capable of grooming it? Heck it could be done 1st thing in the morning. Do you think most people skiing in late April and May are overly concerned with perfect cordoroy?

I told you SB used to run spring operations with salaried management only and was profitable. I'm not sure why you are arguing that hourly staff are needed.

Except that we're talking Wildcat here, not Killington. Killington has a much easier "spring operations" trail pod to confine skiers/riders to than Wildcat does. And just spinning say Lynx or Bobcat won't attract customers like spinning the quad will, and that brings just about all of the mountain into play, not just 1 trail pod like K can do when they confine operations to Superstar

 

[deadheadskier]

If late season spring skiing is indeed profitable, why isn't everyone doing it?

There are a few areas that it can make sense for, but by and large, in today's ski industry, it's an operational loss and an unnecessary depreciation of assets.

I agree it's not for all areas. Wildcat just happens to be one of the better options. You've got skiers up there for Tux. I'm sure many head across the street when the conditions in the bowl aren't great. I drove by there Friday and the parking lot was quite full. People love skiing there in the Spring.

Except that we're talking Wildcat here, not Killington. Killington has a much easier "spring operations" trail pod to confine skiers/riders to than Wildcat does. And just spinning say Lynx or Bobcat won't attract customers like spinning the quad will, and that brings just about all of the mountain into play, not just 1 trail pod like K can do when they confine operations to Superstar

How many more straws is Peaks going to hand you? My lord you will go to the end of the earth to defend every single operating decision the company makes.

Who is to say there will be more than a couple of trails with top to bottom coverage at Wildcat for the last weekend of April or May? If there is more than a few, why do they have to groom more than one? Heck, Wildcat is now in a better position than ever before to operate on salaried staff only as they now have Attitash salaried staff in the mix.

Sorry, but they could open and operate profitably. It's just a question of whether that modest profit is worth it to them and apparently it isn't.

 

[Black Phantom]

I agree it's not for all areas. Wildcat just happens to be one of the better options. You've got skiers up there for Tux. I'm sure many head across the street when the conditions in the bowl aren't great. I drove by there Friday and the parking lot was quite full. People love skiing there in the Spring.



How many more straws is Peaks going to hand you? My lord you will go to the end of the earth to defend every single operating decision the company makes.

Who is to say there will be more than a couple of trails with top to bottom coverage at Wildcat for the last weekend of April or May? If there is more than a few, why do they have to groom more than one? Heck, Wildcat is now in a better position than ever before to operate on salaried staff only as they now have Attitash salaried staff in the mix.

Sorry, but they could open and operate profitably. It's just a question of whether that modest profit is worth it to them and apparently it isn't.

Why would they bother serving F&B? Wouldn't that be losing money?

 

[EPB]

Wildcat is now in a better position than ever before to operate on salaried staff only as they now have Attitash salaried staff in the mix.

Agreed. And I also agree with your points about Tux across the street. I'm glad you brought that up.

@ Threecy, what would be the marginal depreciation effects of using assets at Wildcat for an additional two weekends this spring? Just asking your opinion.

 

[deadheadskier]

Why would they bother serving F&B? Wouldn't that be losing money?

limited offering on weekends with salaried staff can be profitable

 

[threecy]

@ Threecy, what would be the marginal depreciation effects of using assets at Wildcat for an additional two weekends this spring? Just asking your opinion.

I'll loosely quote a very experienced industry manager/consultant..."Why would I put more hours on my lifts and tractors to maybe break even?"

There are a lot of potential issues involved, such as:
- Some lifts do not run as well in warmer weather/wetter (spring thaw) conditions, resulting in an increase of potential repairs, etc.
- Some areas rely heavily upon leased snowcats. Assuming they still have the cat leased in to late spring, like a leased car odometer, they don't want to spin the hours dial on the cat before they turn it in.
- Full time, year-round employees are usually pretty burned out by the time spring rolls around. April can often be the only chance they get to take a vacation (since they're generally working practically round the clock when other folks are on vacation).
- Some areas may have insurance plans that specify what is considered seasonal ski operations.
- Maintenance employees need to focus on annual maintenance projects prior to some areas starting their off season operations.

Attitash is not set up to be a late spring area, due in large part to its low base elevation.

Wildcat, on the other hand, is an awesome late spring area. Imagine what Wildcat could be like if a Superstar-esque snowmaking campaign were undertaken?

 

[deadheadskier]

Wildcat, on the other hand, is an awesome late spring area. Imagine what Wildcat could be like if a Superstar-esque snowmaking campaign were undertaken?

and reinstalled an upper mountain lift, which they have a grand father clause allowing them to do.

Thought about it often. Blast the heck out of Liftlion and Black Cat like Superstar used to see and Memorial Day weekend would be easy most years unless it's a very warm spring.