Sugarbush is being sold to Alterra...

[cdskier]

I think the lift was installed in the mid 80's and as much as I'd like it not to be the case, that was a long time ago. So its pushing 40 years old. It is slow. The departure terminal is badly situated. A new quad like the valley house is coming hopefully sooner rather than later.

Interesting comment about the departure terminal. I've never really thought about that.

As for lift age, can you really still consider a lift 40 years old if the majority of the electronics and mechanical components have been replaced in the past 5 years (when it was rebuilt by Skytrac)? I agree at some point it needs replacement (let's say in the 5-10 year plan), but I just don't see that being considered a priority over other needs within the next couple years. Hawk's snowmaking plan to me should be at the top of the list. Maybe also some lodge additions/improvements (i.e. a mid-mountain lodge at the top of GH).

 

[crazy]

I was too young to follow the ASC antitrust issues, but it seems that it was argued that competition in very localized areas was no longer possible (e.g. the white mountains). I wish I could think of where I read it, but from what I remember, Vail and Alterra "own" a much smaller share of US skier visits than I world have thought.

Maybe the two mega companies own too much NH/VT market share to buy Jay Peak now, though? [emoji848]

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Perhaps there are antitrust concerns for Vail, but certainly not Alterra.

Alterra owns 2 resorts (pending the SB closing) in VT and 0 in NH.

 

[crazy]

Those old maps with the terrain above Inverness and down to Lower FIS looks great. Would make North feel as though it was equal size as South almost. ROI is the question of course

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That kind of terrain expansion would be dope, but given the lack of crowds at North, how could they justify that investment? I would guess that crowds would have to increase substantially at North for that to be considered. Being unlimited on the Ikon pass could help a bit, but I still don't know if that would generate enough additional skier visits at North.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Those old maps with the terrain above Inverness and down to Lower FIS looks great. Would make North feel as though it was equal size as South almost. ROI is the question of course

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interested. got any pics of said old maps?

i always eye that area above inverness. obviously skiable stuff.

edit: this?

 

[VTKilarney]

So does Alterra still make a legitimate offer on Jay Peak now?

 

[ss20]

I have mixed feelings long-term for SB being bought by Alterra. It's just crazy. Sugarbush was the last major mountain in the East not owned by a multi-mountain company. It's crazy how fast times changed compared to five...ten years ago. *assuming Jay goes to a big company which I'd bet my house on.

In the short-term...how many of my future children do I need to sell to Alterra to get an unlimited Vermont Sugarbush/Killington-Pico/Stratton pass next season???

Correction- Bretton Woods is still a major player who's independent.

 

[ss20]

So does Alterra still make a legitimate offer on Jay Peak now?

How can they not? Alterra and Vail are running out of major real estate to purchase.

 

[deadheadskier]

Smuggs is still independent. Waterville too. I guess you could say Saddleback as well

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[deadheadskier]

interested. got any pics of said old maps?

i always eye that area above inverness. obviously skiable stuff.

edit: this?

That's partially it, but the image I'm thinking of was a master plan document. It had a lift and trail pod heading down to Lower FIS from Tumbler and then something similar to that trail map you posted with a lift and trails above Inverness. Think the same graphic had other lifts and trails on Lincoln as well. It's been posted on here before, but I'm not seeing it in a Google images search

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[cdskier]

That's partially it, but the image I'm thinking of was a master plan document. It had a lift and trail pod heading down to Lower FIS from Tumbler and then something similar to that trail map you posted with a lift and trails above Inverness. Think the same graphic had other lifts and trails on Lincoln as well. It's been posted on here before, but I'm not seeing it in a Google images search

This?

 

[deadheadskier]

That's it. Do you have the Lincoln one as well?

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[machski]

I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.

No way you ever get Gondola cabins on Slidebrook. Remember that is what Les wanted in the first place and the locals shot that down as an eye sore. You'd be hard pressed to hang cabins on the current line with the height clearance over the ground. I think what you might see is it converted to heated bubble quad, with a chair barn on the Lincoln side.

But the truth is, pay attention to Win's punch list (I remember reading one not too long ago). IIRC it included lodge rebuilds/replacements, snowmaking water pump increases and I think Super Bravo to a six. Later, I could maybe see Gatehouse also considered for a 6 and HG and Ellen Summit Quad replacements. But I think this is the initial direction they take. The slidebrook thing at the start of this, that's pie in the sky stuff.

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[djd66]

The new owners have easier access to capital. I bet there's a new HG chair and significant snowmaking improvements, and two new lodges at mount ellen, and a new health club and hotel.

all of this stuff is well needed. While they are at it, build a nice spa for my wife.

 

[djd66]

I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.

yes, gondola cabins on SB would be awesome.

 

[HowieT2]

Interesting comment about the departure terminal. I've never really thought about that.

As for lift age, can you really still consider a lift 40 years old if the majority of the electronics and mechanical components have been replaced in the past 5 years (when it was rebuilt by Skytrac)? I agree at some point it needs replacement (let's say in the 5-10 year plan), but I just don't see that being considered a priority over other needs within the next couple years. Hawk's snowmaking plan to me should be at the top of the list. Maybe also some lodge additions/improvements (i.e. a mid-mountain lodge at the top of GH).

I didn’t mean to imply I’d prioritize a new hg lift over snowmaking, only that there are issues with the current lift and, like you said, it’s going to need to be replaced anyway in the next 5-10 years. Also, new lifts and lodges are shinier objects than bigger pipes and pumps.
as for the terminus, getting off the lift and then making a left turn up a hill to get to the traverse, is less than ideal. It’s a struggle especially for the visiting “vacation” skiers. It would probably be better if the lift ended up where the old gondola was, although that might have wind issues.

 

[HowieT2]

all of this stuff is well needed. While they are at it, build a nice spa for my wife.

totally. The sharc is ancient. No reason they couldn’t put a hotel and spa there.

 

[thebigo]

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.

 

[TheArchitect]

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.

Jay is one close to a major population center...Montreal. Alterra already has Tremblant. I think Jay makes a ton of sense for Ikon.

As for SB, I hope they invest heavily in snowmaking first. With climate change and the temp swings we've been experiencing they need to be able to recover quickly after a warm spell. New lifts are great, and added terrain even better but none of that matters if the snow is lousy, or not there.

 

[cdskier]

I didn’t mean to imply I’d prioritize a new hg lift over snowmaking, only that there are issues with the current lift and, like you said, it’s going to need to be replaced anyway in the next 5-10 years. Also, new lifts and lodges are shinier objects than bigger pipes and pumps.
as for the terminus, getting off the lift and then making a left turn up a hill to get to the traverse, is less than ideal. It’s a struggle especially for the visiting “vacation” skiers. It would probably be better if the lift ended up where the old gondola was, although that might have wind issues.

Ahh...when you said "departure" I was thinking the lower terminus (i.e. when the lift first "takes off"). Yea, the top is a bit of a challenge with having to go uphill a bit, but wind is a major reason HG didn't terminate at the old gondola summit. I'll take the trade-off of a little extra exercise vs a lift that goes on wind hold more often.

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.

Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.

 

[mister moose]

Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.

There's just so much you can afford to do on 400,000 skier visits and a flat growth curve.