Sugarbush is being sold to Alterra...

[ThinkSnow]

Curious what you think is so bad about HG? Reliability has not been an issue at all the past couple seasons. Capacity I wouldn't want to see increased as I don't think the trails at the summit could handle more traffic. It is on wind hold enough as is, so no way you'd want to go to a detachable and make it even worse in the wind.

Virtually no one here has a clue about SB-let them all prattle on and ski Kmart & Mount Slow

 

[HowieT2]

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.

I don’t know what they are going to do, and it’s beyond me how the finances work. But it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales. If that’s the case, they need to have a stable of resorts in most areas to attract skiers to icon as opposed to epic. And now sugarbush is their answer to vails Stowe. Stowe’s capital investments have dwarfed those at sugarbush, so you would think, the Alterra people know they have to invest in some capital improvements. At least I hope so.

 

[HowieT2]

Ahh...when you said "departure" I was thinking the lower terminus (i.e. when the lift first "takes off"). Yea, the top is a bit of a challenge with having to go uphill a bit, but wind is a major reason HG didn't terminate at the old gondola summit. I'll take the trade-off of a little extra exercise vs a lift that goes on wind hold more often.

Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.

what if their plan is to go public with the company? Isn’t that exactly what vail did?

 

[HowieT2]

There's just so much you can afford to do on 400,000 skier visits and a flat growth curve.

but these guys are playing a whole different game, no? They are growing a subscription revenue business. $100/month per person for all the skiing at all their resorts. Consistent revenue not so dependent on weather. And they’re growing their other revenue by attracting more visits to the resorts. Investors seem to like vail.

 

[WinS]

So my friends were not so off the mark. Actually I heard more thought better of saying anything. I find it somewhat disappointing but I guess like Machski is saying, they are the better fit. We will see.

Now I have a new owner that I can badger with my snowmaking wants! LOL

Sorry Hawk. You still have me

 

[cdskier]

I don’t know what they are going to do, and it’s beyond me how the finances work. But it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales. If that’s the case, they need to have a stable of resorts in most areas to attract skiers to icon as opposed to epic. And now sugarbush is their answer to vails Stowe. Stowe’s capital investments have dwarfed those at sugarbush, so you would think, the Alterra people know they have to invest in some capital improvements. At least I hope so.

I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.

 

[WinS]

I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.

You are right on!

 

[HowieT2]

I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.

exactly. The snowmaking at Stowe is significantly ahead of what sugarbush has, and that needs a major investment. The lodges at mt Ellen r great and I,love them but they’re inadequate especially if you want to drive some traffic over there. A new hotel doesn’t have to be a monstrosity like spruce peak, but there is demand for something moderate.

 

[BenedictGomez]

it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales.

Vail sells hundreds-of-thousands more EPIC passes than Alterra sells IKON passes, and that was before Vail added SKIS to the portfolio.

 

[WinS]

Remember, this is only the second year of the Ikon Pass. Epic has been around for a lot longer.

 

[Keelhauled]

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition?

They built the new HSQ at Stratton last year, and Winter Park has gotten a new gondola and HS6 over the last two seasons, plus Steamboat is getting a complete gondola rebuild for this winter. So they're not afraid to match or do better than Vail w/r/t capitol investment.

 

[tumbler]

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens. Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.

 

[cdskier]

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens. Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.

Yup...you hit the nail on the head with the primary concern. It is reassuring to know that Win is staying on though. I'd be much more worried if he wasn't going to still be here.

 

[TheArchitect]

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens. Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.

Bingo

 

[smac75]

exactly. The snowmaking at Stowe is significantly ahead of what sugarbush has, and that needs a major investment. The lodges at mt Ellen r great and I,love them but they’re inadequate especially if you want to drive some traffic over there. A new hotel doesn’t have to be a monstrosity like spruce peak, but there is demand for something moderate.

I really think they should spruce up the SB Inn a bit. The rooms need updating badly but the common areas are pretty much perfect the way they are - 100% Vermont charm.

 

[drjeff]

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

 

[TheArchitect]

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

I have the Base and I was thinking of what I would do if they go unlimited. The reality is that it's a 3 1/2-4 hour drive for me each way and I don't know if I'll be able to get up to SB more than the 5 days I already have. Plus, I like to hit multiple resorts each season. If that wasn't the case then I'd upgrade the the full if SB went unlimited and suck it up when it came to the drive time.

 

[machski]

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

That is an answer we really cannot answer at this junction as we don't know how Alterra will treat SB on the Ikon. Many think they will make both SB and Stratton Unlimited (Full) and Unlimited w/blackouts (Base). If that is the case, not sure many will switch unless you had a base and a Sugarbush pass as well this season. Now, if they keep Stratton as is next year and put SB on the Ikon in the same fashion (Unlimited Full but only 5 days w/blackout base), that would be another story as you would just gain 2 extra days any longer by going base to full at SB. Then, the third option would be to keep SB as premium resort (a la DV or Aspen) and still only do 7 days no blackout full, 5 days w/blackout base. Need to see how they play that I think first.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[JimG.]

Glad SB decided to do this and not Killington.

 

[HowieT2]

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

that would be my guess. thinking the vast majority of icon holders dont ski more than 7 days regardless if it becomes unlimited.