Summer 2018 Northeast Offseason Improvements

[sull1102]

Also keep in mind that the Waterville Valley expansion was done under their SUP and a Forestry Services permit. I am guessing, but pretty sure, that the environmental requirements for the Hunter expansion were a lot less than what Waterville is dealing with.

I wonder if that is the case. I figure it's a case of WV wants to spread the costs and they have 2% of the crowding issues Hunter has. Hunter also had the corporate will power of Peak driving things along with competing NYState owned reapers getting big investments lately. WV is doing Green Peak because they need to do something after 40+ years of no changes at all and going 25 years of no new lifts(Jesus that's a sad figure).

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[deadheadskier]

I'd imagine part of the reason WV is going so slow is they want to sell the place. Perhaps they are paying for much of the work with operating profit instead of accumulating a lot of debt that they likely won't get a great ROI in the sale.

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[Funky_Catskills]

Also keep in mind that the Waterville Valley expansion was done under their SUP and a Forestry Services permit. I am guessing, but pretty sure, that the environmental requirements for the Hunter expansion were a lot less than what Waterville is dealing with.

Hunter lies within the "Catskill Forest Preserve" (NYSDEC) and is in the NYC watershed governed by the DEP..

There were permits... And environmental requirements.... trust me...
Nobody makes a move in the Catskills without the DEP getting involved..

 

[Jully]

I'd imagine part of the reason WV is going so slow is they want to sell the place. Perhaps they are paying for much of the work with operating profit instead of accumulating a lot of debt that they likely won't get a great ROI in the sale.

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This is the scuttlebutt I have heard. It makes perfect sense too.

 

[machski]

This is the scuttlebutt I have heard. It makes perfect sense too.

Probably why they scrapped a new HSQ for Green and went with a relocated World Cup Triple instead. That makes a bit of a mess, as Green peak all the way down to town with a Gondola back up is still on the boards. A slow triple to link that would be poor, making a new buyer likely needing to upgrade they lift installed now.

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[andrec10]

Hunter lies within the "Catskill Forest Preserve" (NYSDEC) and is in the NYC watershed governed by the DEP..

There were permits... And environmental requirements.... trust me...
Nobody makes a move in the Catskills without the DEP getting involved..

No one farts in the Catskills, without the DEP getting involved!

 

[sull1102]

No one farts in the Catskills, without the DEP getting involved!

WMNF is a cake walk in comparison

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[deadheadskier]

WMNF is a cake walk in comparison

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Sarcasm? A comparable project to Hunters would be South Peak at Loon. That took nearly 20 years to push through.

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[sull1102]

Try doing anything at all in upstate NY and you shall see. Don't forget NY is in the business so when they're deciding whether or not to approve your expansion, well it might take a good long minute. South Peak did not take almost 20 years for permits. They started cutting those trails back in 97 then stalled out, but once they decided they were actually going for it things moved along. Although that's another good example of a long build out as well. It's been what ten years since the Lincoln Express started spinning and still to this day it doesn't have all the terrain originally planned.

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[deadheadskier]

Didn't "stall out" in 97. They were forced to stop.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/loon/southpeak.php

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[machski]

^^^^^THIS!! South Peak took forever to get through final approvals. It looked all set and trail cutting began in 97 before out of staters got the NFS to shut it down again with a new complaint. Absolute BS in my opinion. The original plans for South were up to 27 main trails off the top. That was cut down to what we have now off the top. Of course, they do have approval for the lower learning pod that will be the public acces point to South when done. That delay is all on Boyne.

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[Newpylong]

Hunter and WV both have all required permits but the Hunter crew has more in house and institutional (Peak) project management experience. They can afford and handle completing a project of this magnitude in one off-season.

 

[machski]

Sunday River is beginning the doubling of it's Snowmaking water capacity this year. That should boost it to, oh say, 16000 gal/min. Best part about step one is the new trunk line from the river to the Snowmaking plant, something they have blown out several times over the last several seasons. 15% boost this year and hopefully much more reliable system.
https://sundayriver.blog/2018/07/20/taking-the-first-step-toward-doubling-snowmaking/

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[Jully]

Sunday River is beginning the doubling of it's Snowmaking water capacity this year. That should boost it to, oh say, 16000 gal/min. Best part about step one is the new trunk line from the river to the Snowmaking plant, something they have blown out several times over the last several seasons. 15% boost this year and hopefully much more reliable system.
https://sundayriver.blog/2018/07/20/taking-the-first-step-toward-doubling-snowmaking/

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Great to hear they're getting a sizable upgrade to their snowmaking. I imagine just what they've laid out for this year is not cheap (never mind what is to come).

Was this trunk line part of what they struggled with this season at points? I wonder if this means we are not that far from a pump on the west side like they've talked about previously.

 

[machski]

Great to hear they're getting a sizable upgrade to their snowmaking. I imagine just what they've laid out for this year is not cheap (never mind what is to come).

Was this trunk line part of what they struggled with this season at points? I wonder if this means we are not that far from a pump on the west side like they've talked about previously.

Yes, the last several seasons actually. I believe they blew out this trunk line at various locations at least three times the last two seasons, including the lead up to opening day last year which cut their planned opening day trail count in half. This set them back straight through early season. Had the line held, they likely would have come close to matching the ramp up seen at Mount Snow. The new river pump puts their water push very close to Snow's now.

My guess is that between this needed rebuild and the new Gondi cabins Loon is getting, this is the start of Boyne reinvesting in the East now that they control the whole deal. O do believe we see the new West River feed line at SR in the next year or two, along with some revamps on the hill in terms of plumbing to maximize it.

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[ss20]

My guess is that between this needed rebuild and the new Gondi cabins Loon is getting, this is the start of Boyne reinvesting in the East now that they control the whole deal. O do believe we see the new West River feed line at SR in the next year or two, along with some revamps on the hill in terms of plumbing to maximize it.

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While the increase in pumping capacity is cool...replacing a major snowmaking line that has blown out multiple times and replacing gondola cabins that are 30 years old sounds more like catching up on deferred maintenance than a new era of investment... especially given the massive portfolio Boyne has.

 

[Newpylong]

The river line that is getting replaced was rotted and should have been done years ago, I know the guys doing it for them. Ductile Iron is starting to make inroads into the North American snowmaking industry, especially for buried lines where corrosion is the worst.

They already have a phenomenal snowmaking system and great staff to use it - their largest hurdle as mentioned is the lack of a direct water source on the West side, meaning they have to pump water out of Barker at ridiculously high pressure to ensure there is still enough PSI once it gets on the other side.

 

[ss20]

The river line that is getting replaced was rotted and should have been done years ago, I know the guys doing it for them. Ductile Iron is starting to make inroads into the North American snowmaking industry, especially for buried lines where corrosion is the worst.

I do kinda wonder about these "major snowmaking lines" that connect the main water source these mountains use to their on-mountain systems. Killington tapping into the Woodward Reservoir comes to mind. Okemo's big pond just outside Ludlow that takes from the river is another. Major pipes like these must be pushing 30+ years old at most resorts and would be a huge undertaking to replace I'd imagine, tearing up roads and lots of digging.

 

[slatham]

I do kinda wonder about these "major snowmaking lines" that connect the main water source these mountains use to their on-mountain systems. Killington tapping into the Woodward Reservoir comes to mind. Okemo's big pond just outside Ludlow that takes from the river is another. Major pipes like these must be pushing 30+ years old at most resorts and would be a huge undertaking to replace I'd imagine, tearing up roads and lots of digging.

Sugarbush Lincoln Peak line from pond down by Rt 100 in the Mad River Valley is another, and was replaced (or had major repairs) several years ago.

Of course Mt Snow's West Lake Projct is also a very long haul. Let's see how that holds up.

 

[Jully]

While the increase in pumping capacity is cool...replacing a major snowmaking line that has blown out multiple times and replacing gondola cabins that are 30 years old sounds more like catching up on deferred maintenance than a new era of investment... especially given the massive portfolio Boyne has.

At a minimum it shows that Boyne is willing to pay for that maintenance. CNL and OZ (however brief) clearly were not shelling out for these replacements while Boyne immediately does in the year they buy the resorts back.

Could be coincidence, but it doesn't feel like it. It's not like Loon didn't need cabins every year CNL owned them and SR's main line has had struggles from what Mach said. The replacements were justified for years, but Boyne is actually doing them now. Major step in the right direction!