Sunday River VS. Killington: the Snowmaking & Early Opening Oldschool THROWDOWN!

[andyzee]

Let's personally attack Highway Star! :beer:

Nah, he does a good enough job on his own.

 

[drjeff]

This whole K vs. SR 1st to blow snow, first to spin the lifts thing IN MID OCTOBER is one of the best thigs to happen to NE skiing/riding in a good number of years IMHO!

Let there just be the battle of the press releases in opening day like in the old days when you'd see one of them claiming 1st turns at like 7:16AM only to be out down shortly thereafter by the other claiming 1st turns at 7:14AM! Unless K decides to do some downloading and implement a 4 wheel drive vehicle though to transport folks to/from the upload/download lift, SR has the advantage - especially in this weather pattern where Woodbury probably won't get the weather they need to go for it this week.

 

[Greg]

Unless K decides to do some downloading and implement a 4 wheel drive vehicle though to transport folks to/from the upload/download lift, SR has the advantage

Question for the K knowledgeable:

Could they up/download on the Canyon quad? What's the road up to the Canyon quad like? Seems like they could offer a combination of trucking/uploading/downloading with skiing off the NRT if they really wanted to. It's my understanding that the truck liability is the biggest factor. It's a pretty gentle grade (300 vertical feet over the course of a half mile) up to the Canyon though. Pave that bitch, run shuttles, and we're in business! Where there's a will....

 

[JerseyJoey]

Question for the K knowledgeable:

Could they up/download on the Canyon quad? What's the road up to the Canyon quad like? Seems like they could offer a combination of trucking/uploading/downloading with skiing off the NRT if they really wanted to. It's my understanding that the truck liability is the biggest factor. It's a pretty gentle grade (300 vertical feet over the course of a half mile) up to the Canyon though. Pave that bitch, run shuttles, and we're in business! Where there's a will....

I remember the days of the pickup trucks. That was some scary shit. There is a definite liability issue there.

I guess you can download the CQ but you still have a pretty long walk out, but it'd be worth it regardless.

 

[Greg]

I guess you can download the CQ but you still have a pretty long walk out, but it'd be worth it regardless.

It's a half mile. I would definitely walk it.

 

[JerseyJoey]

It's a half mile. I would definitely walk it.

Me too.

 

[millerm277]

Canyon Quad is set up to allow downloading, the only real issue is just getting people to the base of it. Pickup trucks work, but...definite liability issue, and the path is probably too rough for any sort of "comfortable" transportation. Then again, if a hay ride in the back of a tractor or whatever is legal, why isn't doing the same with something similar attached to a truck?

 

[Greg]

Canyon Quad is set up to allow downloading, the only real issue is just getting people to the base of it. Pickup trucks work, but...definite liability issue, and the path is probably too rough for any sort of "comfortable" transportation. Then again, if a hay ride in the back of a tractor or whatever is legal, why isn't doing the same with something similar attached to a truck?

Maybe some summer they'll pave it. Problem solved. Not insignificant, but paving a half mile has to be a lot cheaper than installing a new upper mountain lift.

 

[Highway Star]

Question for the K knowledgeable:

Could they up/download on the Canyon quad? What's the road up to the Canyon quad like? Seems like they could offer a combination of trucking/uploading/downloading with skiing off the NRT if they really wanted to. It's my understanding that the truck liability is the biggest factor. It's a pretty gentle grade (300 vertical feet over the course of a half mile) up to the Canyon though. Pave that bitch, run shuttles, and we're in business! Where there's a will....

Why do you think I've been riding them like a pony about an upper mountain lift, going on 4 years now.......??!?!? October rolls around, they make snow up top......Etc. ETC. ETC.....annnnd they don't open.

Trucks to the canyon quad are tough. The dirt road is bumpy.....not all that safe. The up and download are SLOW. There is no bathroom or lodge, etc up there. It's just a pain overall.

For the amount they would waste paving that road, they could put in a poma on upper downdraft or put that money towards a chair.

They could truck people up great northern from the top of the SRT.

 

[Puck it]

It's a half mile. I would definitely walk it.

A magic carpet!!!!

 

[drjeff]

Question for the K knowledgeable:

Could they up/download on the Canyon quad? What's the road up to the Canyon quad like? Seems like they could offer a combination of trucking/uploading/downloading with skiing off the NRT if they really wanted to. It's my understanding that the truck liability is the biggest factor. It's a pretty gentle grade (300 vertical feet over the course of a half mile) up to the Canyon though. Pave that bitch, run shuttles, and we're in business! Where there's a will....

The other option is to upload/download via the Snowdon Triple and then shuttle people back and forth to the Northridge triple via Killink(or whatever the heck that connector trail is called these days) Heck, they could probably blow some snow up there and have ski to the lift from the top of the snowdon triple. That would also alieviate having to blow from the top of K1 across to Northridge at the start of the season.

 

[JerseyJoey]

The other option is to upload/download via the Snowdon Triple and then shuttle people back and forth to the Northridge triple via Killink(or whatever the heck that connector trail is called these days) Heck, they could probably blow some snow up there and have ski to the lift from the top of the snowdon triple. That would also alieviate having to blow from the top of K1 across to Northridge at the start of the season.

That a really great idea. That part of Killink is pretty flat and it could easily be done with a hay wagon.

Damn man, that is a really really good idea.

 

[Highway Star]

The other option is to upload/download via the Snowdon Triple and then shuttle people back and forth to the Northridge triple via Killink(or whatever the heck that connector trail is called these days) Heck, they could probably blow some snow up there and have ski to the lift from the top of the snowdon triple. That would also alieviate having to blow from the top of K1 across to Northridge at the start of the season.

Tha snowdon triple is rated to download at 20% of capacity. Not going to work.

Seriously, the ONLY lift that makes any sort of sense for this is the K-1 Gondola. It's fast, has 100% up and download capacity, and has a LODGE right at the top. They need a upper elevation lift, either a surface lift or a chair, that runs back up to the top......

 

[JerseyJoey]

Tha snowdon triple is rated to download at 20% of capacity. Not going to work.

Seriously, the ONLY lift that makes any sort of sense for this is the K-1 Gondola. It's fast, has 100% up and download capacity, and has a LODGE right at the top. They need a upper elevation lift, either a surface lift or a chair, that runs back up to the top......

20% = load every 5th chair. That's plenty of capacity. How many people will be looking to download at exactly the same time? Not many.

This idea could easily work without spending a dime on a new lift. Your costs would simply be the electric to run the lift and the fuel for the hay wagon.

I think this idea is much more realistic than putting in a new lift, especially for this regime. A new lift to the peak would need to a chairlift. Way to steep for the last 200-300 vertical feet to the summit for it to be a poma.

Use the Snowdon triple for uploading and downloading early season. It's a great idea and it would work.

 

[Greg]

I've got it! Just station a crapload of mountain bikes at the bottom of the Glades and let people ride down!

Duh!!!

 

[WWF-VT]

Seriously, the ONLY lift that makes any sort of sense for this is the K-1 Gondola. It's fast, has 100% up and download capacity, and has a LODGE right at the top. They need a upper elevation lift, either a surface lift or a chair, that runs back up to the top......

That's just nonsense. What K really needs is a transporter

 

[Highway Star]

20% = load every 5th chair. That's plenty of capacity. How many people will be looking to download at exactly the same time? Not many.

This idea could easily work without spending a dime on a new lift. Your costs would simply be the electric to run the lift and the fuel for the hay wagon.

I think this idea is much more realistic than putting in a new lift, especially for this regime. A new lift to the peak would need to a chairlift. Way to steep for the last 200-300 vertical feet to the summit for it to be a poma.

Use the Snowdon triple for uploading and downloading early season. It's a great idea and it would work.

This has been discussed EXTENSIVELY over on www.killingtonzone.com.

Your snowdon horsecart idea is absurd and you obviously haven't thought about it.

I'm NOT talking about a lift to the peak. I'm talking about a lift to the top of Downdraft.

Anyway:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forum...238803&hilit=+snowdon+triple+download#p238803

The simplest early season plan requires one new lift and a modification of an old one.
- New lift from the top of South Ridge up to the peak.
- Modify the South Ridge Triple to include a mid-station around the turn
You then upload and download on the K-1, use the Glades Triple and the South Ridge Triple for skiing, then bring people back to the peak via the new lift and download on the K-1.
This plan allows upper mountain green trail skiing on Pipe Dream and and more advance skiing in the Glades area. It has the added advantage of allowing them to blow snow from the top downward as the weather cools, thus expanding in a natural order.
Unfortunately, I would not expect to see such a plan (or a variation) implemented until at least the 08 - 09 season.

I think it would be better long-term to upload/download on a Snowdon high speed quad. I don't like it but that lift is the obvious next "upgrade".
You cut a narrow band parallel to Killink and borrow the handle tow from Rams Head and run it from the Great Northern wrap-around back to the top of Snowdon. Drag a few electric fan guns and water hoses over to it and you have a handle tow liftline covered in 12 hours. When early season is done, you move the handle tow back down to the beginner area. Killington could then open on Rime and the Great Northern wrap-around with a patch on Killink. You could even open with just Rime and let people walk back up to Snowdon. It's only 5 or 10 minutes. You'd then expand to upper Bunny Buster and the Poma as temperatures permit.

Geoff, I do like your plan, and thanks to skiingsnow for fleshing it out. I agree it's viable. In fact, there's already a large cut above Killink that could be cleaned out for a handle tow to run. It's a reasonable temporary solution.
However, I still think the lack of reasonable lodge accessablity is a major downfall that cannot be dismissed. Early season weather can be highly variable and pretty bad half the time. If it's the least bit rainy or cold, or if a woman has to pee, consider what they have to go through to get down:
- Ski from the top of the Glades (north ridge) triple down to the Killink intersection via Great Northern. (5 minutes)
- Ride the handle tow back up to the top of Snowdon. (5 minutes)
- Hike a hundred yards over to the Snowdon Quad for downloading (5 minutes)
- Ride the Snowdon Quad down hill at half speed. (20 minutes)
- Walk up hill 150+ yards up hill to the KBL. (5-10 minutes)
So, that means it takes a half hour to get to a lodge, from anywhere you are skiing, including the poma, and 45 minutes to nearly an hour to get down from the triple. And then if you want to keep skiing, you have to upload again. As much as I love early season skiing, and peeing in the woods.............even I could barely tolerate that.
With a handle tow on Downdraft (or any other upper mountain/K-peak lift), the process would be this:
- Ride the Glades Triple (6-7 minutes plus lift line).
- Traverse over to the Downdraft handle tow (1 minute)
- Ride the 400 ft long handle tow (2 minutes plus lift line)
- Walk less than 100 feet to the Summit Lodge entrance.
So, thats about 10-15 minutes from the base of the Glades Triple to the Summit Lodge, or just a few minutes from the top of the Triple. Quite reasonable. Over the normal course of skiing on the triple, it would not be a big deal to pop over to the handle tow, and go up to the lodge for a few minutes....and then you get to ski back down to the triple on a nice longer run off the top. Regardless of if you think it's practical to make snow and groom Heavenly Traverse, that's just the minimum snowmaking option - it's still not a big deal to cover the top part of GN and or Downdraft instaid. Yes, I know it requires opening two lodges - open KBL for bathrooms and ticket sales, and do food and beverage on the summit. Keep people up top all day.....captive audience for food/bev.
Overall, I seriously caution you about moving away from the K-1 and Summit lodge combo. That's what makes it a real first class operation, and makes the whole thing viable from a functionality standpoint. People are not going to show up to ride up and down on fixed grip lifts, without a lodge that's reasonably accessable, and the K-1 is BY FAR the best lift Killington has to do uploading and downloading on - you have to take your skis off to ride it anyway, it's dry, comfortable, safe, and can download 100% at full speed. Plus they can be running mountain biking on it at the same time.
Killington has to make best use of it's current and inherent assets. That includes the K-1, the Summit lodge, and all the highest elevation terrain. Running a tow on Downdraft sets a precident for establishing a real first class high elevation skiing area, all at 3,500 ft and above. Obviously, if you are talking about installing actual chairlifts, that's much better, the tow is just a temp thing. Two new lifts back up to K-1, one on the main Downdraft line, and the other on upper Pipe Dream, would provide enough lifts and terrain to keep 3,000++ people happy, and a good overall experience for them. Punchline: it has to work, for real, on the hill, for people to come.
Bubba's plan also falls into this category, but I still don't understand why you would want to put a lift from the SRT up to the summit lodge. Why not put it on the north side, from the intersection of GN and Double Dipper, up upper Downdraft to the K-1? Or a lift on the main line of Downdraft. It's a tough sell to get them to run the SRT from the midstation up, and to make enough snow to cover upper Pipe Dream or GE....not particularly efficient, for what you get....a short, flat section of trail. Plus, any SRT replacement is going to go up to the summit lodge anyway, or at least very close...if it started at the bottom of upper Pipe Dream, then it might be worth making snow on Great Eastern down to it, since you were already covering the top part, then you would at least have a nice green cruiser.
Regardless, this is really just a thread about short term stuff........

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

wow...lots of words in that last post...too many to read. I guess it all just seems easier at the River.

 

[drjeff]

I've got it! Just station a crapload of mountain bikes at the bottom of the Glades and let people ride down!

Duh!!!

And the purchase of a liftticket gets you a 1 way down the hill use of their full suspension Kona's. Just gotta figure out how to make clipless skiboot pedals!

 

[Greg]

And the purchase of a liftticket gets you a 1 way down the hill use of their full suspension Kona's. Just gotta figure out how to make clipless skiboot pedals!

Just mount bindings to the pedals! Duh...