The most recent Alta blog broke down skier traffic increases this year

[jimmywilson69]

I'll be at Jackson next week, Wednesday and Thursday. It cost me $542 to buy 2 2-Day tickets :-o:-o:-o that was the discount rate from the walk up rate. No big deal to me, as this was a last minute booking based on my sons High School Basketball playoff schedule. But what these cheap passes do is make you buy them and then use them. So not surprised that resorts are seeing crazy crowding.

I'll report back on my experience during an anticipated snowless, weekday trip to Jackson. I'm going to have fun regardless, but I am curious as to the line situation. During the epic February snows they looked substantial.

 

[kingslug]

Try Apre vous Saratoga Bowl. If you want a challenge with minimal lift lines. The runout really sux though.

 

[tumbler]

I sense a famous quote will soon be used.

“Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded”

Personally I am truly bummed as I was looking forward to getting to Solitude and Big Sky, both of which used be much less crowded than other destination resorts. Might be time to look at those areas NOT on Icon or Epic.....

Solitude was empty Thursday and Friday, both powder days. Very crowded on Saturday for big powder day but just in the morning and pretty empty on Sunday. I would still go. We stayed in the village so did not have to deal with parking, but on Saturday you could see from the lift cars lining the side of the road. On Saturday, once they finished with avy control work and got Honeycomb open that helped disperse the crowd.

 

[abc]

Jackson ain’t what it used to be. The days of walk on trams during January storm days are gone.

Those days had long been gone many years BEFORE Ikon came to the scene!

I've been going to Jackson for the past 10 or so years (every other years, give or take). It's never "quiet" when there's any fresh snow.

Though with the Ikon pass, the lift lines are noticeably longer this year. So was the slope.

Oddly enough, the snow condition on expert terrain were not too much affected despite the long line at the tram and Sublet chair. Seems to me the masses confined themselves to the groomer. The slow chair helped.

 

[kingslug]

"The good old days" Alta $38.00 lift pass...Jet Blue 99 bucks each way...4 foot dumps and no prob getting up there...sadly long gone

 

[BenedictGomez]

Stickied thread at the top of this forum: "Skiing on the cheap"

Main complaint in this thread: "Ski areas are too crowded" Well make up your mind.

It certainly isn't cheaper for those of us who like variety, and are not interested in skiing primarily at 1 or 2 places all year long.

It's also not cheaper for those of us who excel at SOTC methods, as part of their "strategy" in creating unnecessarily & artificially expensive single day tickets is to remove deals and discounts on single day lift tickets.

As someone who is a coupon, voucher, BOGO, and pre-pay hound, I can tell you that every year fewer & fewer of these deals exist. This also results in lesser inventory on the secondary ticket markets (which were previously a great place to look, but aren't anymore). If this keeps up, they're going to force virtually every non-casual skier to join a pass, even if it means we cant ski the places we REALLY want to ski without paying a net small annual fortune. Happily, as I've stated previously, I do believe their efforts will fail, but until then it's getting harder and harder to SOTC with flexibility.

 

[machski]

I keep hearing Ikon is wrecking this place or that place. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Ikon at BS, JH, Alta/Bird offer a maximum of 7 days at each (Alta/Bird is a combined 7). That is basically a ski week. Maybe being on the pass has put some of these on skier's radar that wasn't before, but they still only get a week max. The great snow has the biggest impact and when talking about JH and BS, remember they were really the only 2 getting the goods last season out west. This makes 2 in a row and both resorts have been stringing up new, fancy lifts and advertising that heavily as well.

I recall it wasn't too long ago JHMR was talking they might not be able to swing the new Tram they have now with their financials at the time. Big Sky put the puny Lone Peak Tram in mostly because at that time, anything bigger would have cost too much and never been approved. Ski resorts need skiers and visitors spending money to survive. A place like JH and BS cannot survive today with 250000 skier visits.

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[AdironRider]

It certainly isn't cheaper for those of us who like variety, and are not interested in skiing primarily at 1 or 2 places all year long.

It's also not cheaper for those of us who excel at SOTC methods, as part of their "strategy" in creating unnecessarily & artificially expensive single day tickets is to remove deals and discounts on single day lift tickets.

As someone who is a coupon, voucher, BOGO, and pre-pay hound, I can tell you that every year fewer & fewer of these deals exist. This also results in lesser inventory on the secondary ticket markets (which were previously a great place to look, but aren't anymore). If this keeps up, they're going to force virtually every non-casual skier to join a pass, even if it means we cant ski the places we REALLY want to ski without paying a net small annual fortune. Happily, as I've stated previously, I do believe their efforts will fail, but until then it's getting harder and harder to SOTC with flexibility.

Non-casual skiers relying solely on bogos and coupons are very rare, and basically never existed out West, so good luck getting much sympathy from any resort there. You are a needle in a haystack of gapers.

According to my sources at JHMR, these talking points are basically lies though. I find it interesting that every Ikon resort is coming out with similar statements within the past week. Ikon is definitely feeding talking points to their partner resorts. When there is a united effort to blame locals for crowds instead of the brand new pass that has had the same effect literally everywhere with increased crowds, you can only believe so much is fact and the rest is a bad PR move. Telling 40% of your most dedicated clientele (with a higher average spend per day compared to Ikon) to STFU because it is actually their fault is a horrible business move in any industry. We are all not blind.

The lines that used to only be 1+ foot pow days are now normal. Thunder hasn't been under a 15 minute wait on a weekend since December. Luckily, most of the Ikon skiers suck so they do just stick to groomers, so in that sense the mountain hasn't suffered in terms of snow quality, you just only get to ski about 1/2 the runs you did before. When I pay 1400 for a pass (or 2100 which the price hits after August - both of these prices are increases over the previous year) to get 1/2 the skiing I did previously, I am going to bitch, and loudly.

Wife and I are for the first time thinking about not buying a Jackson pass for next year. No one else in my social circle is enthused to either. I have over 1000 days on the hill there and the better part of 50k spent between gear, passes, food and mainly booze there over the past 13 seasons living here. I'm willing to give that all to Targhee if something doesn't change. It takes a lot of Ikon day scans to make up the revenue I provide yet they clearly do not give a shit about me or any other local like me.

Whoever suggested Apres to Saratoga, that is indeed a super fun run when conditions are ripe. In March unless it is full corn snow, they won't be FYI as it is the lowest elevation terrain on the hill. This goes for the Hobacks as well, although a big dump can cover up more there. The runout sucks in all conditions so be prepared for some cramps.

 

[machski]

Non-casual skiers relying solely on bogos and coupons are very rare, and basically never existed out West, so good luck getting much sympathy from any resort there. You are a needle in a haystack of gapers.

According to my sources at JHMR, these talking points are basically lies though. I find it interesting that every Ikon resort is coming out with similar statements within the past week. Ikon is definitely feeding talking points to their partner resorts. When there is a united effort to blame locals for crowds instead of the brand new pass that has had the same effect literally everywhere with increased crowds, you can only believe so much is fact and the rest is a bad PR move. Telling 40% of your most dedicated clientele (with a higher average spend per day compared to Ikon) to STFU because it is actually their fault is a horrible business move in any industry. We are all not blind.

The lines that used to only be 1+ foot pow days are now normal. Thunder hasn't been under a 15 minute wait on a weekend since December. Luckily, most of the Ikon skiers suck so they do just stick to groomers, so in that sense the mountain hasn't suffered in terms of snow quality, you just only get to ski about 1/2 the runs you did before. When I pay 1400 for a pass (or 2100 which the price hits after August - both of these prices are increases over the previous year) to get 1/2 the skiing I did previously, I am going to bitch, and loudly.

Wife and I are for the first time thinking about not buying a Jackson pass for next year. No one else in my social circle is enthused to either. I have over 1000 days on the hill there and the better part of 50k spent between gear, passes, food and mainly booze there over the past 13 seasons living here. I'm willing to give that all to Targhee if something doesn't change. It takes a lot of Ikon day scans to make up the revenue I provide yet they clearly do not give a shit about me or any other local like me.

Whoever suggested Apres to Saratoga, that is indeed a super fun run when conditions are ripe. In March unless it is full corn snow, they won't be FYI as it is the lowest elevation terrain on the hill. This goes for the Hobacks as well, although a big dump can cover up more there. The runout sucks in all conditions so be prepared for some cramps.

Again, sorry but you cannot blame Ikon alone. Ikon skiers only get a maximum of 7 days at JH, 5 if they went Base pass. And unless they are local, they are hitting most of their days if any at JH on a one week stand. Now sure, there are definitely some powder chasers living out of their cars chasing the snow on Ikon, but not enough of those to kill the lines at JHMR. JH started upgrading lifts and redesigning mountain flow years ago to attract the more casual skier that once would have been scared to step foot there. That has nothing to do with Ikon or Mountain Collective, it has to do with a course JHMR management charted and executed on. Add to it one of the better snow locations last year and a huge snow year this year, you have what you have. Even if Ikon didn't exist (and by that, I mean completely or it was still Max), I bet JHMR would have been similarly descended upon this year.

Adiron, you may have gone there before all the lift and lower terrain upgrades when it was an experts paradise. But catering only to that clientele does not pay the bills, for the hill or local business. The resort needs to draw skiers. Perhaps they were too successful or perhaps it's the snow. Guess if next year is dry we can find out then.

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[abc]

I keep hearing Ikon is wrecking this place or that place. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Ikon at BS, JH, Alta/Bird offer a maximum of 7 days at each (Alta/Bird is a combined 7). That is basically a ski week. Maybe being on the pass has put some of these on skier's radar that wasn't before, but they still only get a week max. The great snow has the biggest impact and when talking about JH and BS, remember they were really the only 2 getting the goods last season out west. This makes 2 in a row and both resorts have been stringing up new, fancy lifts and advertising that heavily as well.

I was at BS last year also. Despite being the "only" place that has good snow, it wasn't even close to the level of visitation this year!

JH started upgrading lifts and redesigning mountain flow years ago to attract the more casual skier that once would have been scared to step foot there. That has nothing to do with Ikon or Mountain Collective

You lump Mountain Collective with Ikon. But I've never heard locals complaining about MC. And I've been going to Jackson before Mountain Collective. I didn't notice much change in terms of lines when MC was introduced. But I noticed a HUGE increase in lift line THIS year!

Combine that with Big Sky, there's no denying it's Ikon that brought in the crowd.

As for the snow this year, don't forget the big dumps hit Utah and Colorado too. But the crowd I shared the chair with at Jackson all came from Colorado! Basically, they went to Jackson even though they had epic snow back home. And my friends at Salt Lake were also planning for trips (2 weekend = 4 days). So those are the skiers on Jackson's tram line (and Thunder/Teton lift, both have 10-20 min line)!

Whether it's "wrecking the place" is a different story. How many "skier-week" does it take to change the character of a place is anyone's guess. Keep in mind Ikon sold a couple hundreds of thousand of passes!

 

[Bandit2941]

It certainly isn't cheaper for those of us who like variety, and are not interested in skiing primarily at 1 or 2 places all year long.

It's also not cheaper for those of us who excel at SOTC methods, as part of their "strategy" in creating unnecessarily & artificially expensive single day tickets is to remove deals and discounts on single day lift tickets.

As someone who is a coupon, voucher, BOGO, and pre-pay hound, I can tell you that every year fewer & fewer of these deals exist. This also results in lesser inventory on the secondary ticket markets (which were previously a great place to look, but aren't anymore). If this keeps up, they're going to force virtually every non-casual skier to join a pass, even if it means we cant ski the places we REALLY want to ski without paying a net small annual fortune. Happily, as I've stated previously, I do believe their efforts will fail, but until then it's getting harder and harder to SOTC with flexibility.

Agreed. Our first trip to Tahoe only 5 or 6 years ago we were able to find BOGOs or good discounts to mt rose, heavenly and Kirkwood. On our second trip two years later most of these deals had disappeared and still aren’t out there.

The big conglomerates are raising the day ticket prices and lowering the season pass prices. It’s forcing people to buy passes since in some cases the break even point is only 5 day tickets! This shifts the risk of a bad season from the resort to the skier and creates a more predictable and steadier revenue stream. This is necessary for publically traded companies such as Vail and Peak (both of which I’m a shareholder, bought Peak at $3 and Vail at $128 so both have been good investments for me and the dividends are great especially with peak).

This spring we’re going to Mammoth and 4 day tickets bought in advance on their website in mid April is $371. Toss in another day at a Tahoe resort call it $100 for a round number and now it’s $471 for 5 days. Ikon base is $649 so it’s a no brainer, we’ll get it, use it at squaw and mammoth on our trip, Killington and sugarbush next year, and probably another Tahoe/mammoth trip next year since we will already have the pass. But geez - $759 for the ORDA pass we’ll get and $649 for ikon base is more than I’ve ever spent on tickets in a year.

This is also contributing to making the barrier to entry for skiing even higher. Why would anybody want to start skiing if their first day cost $200+ between a ticket and rentals let alone food and a lesson???

 

[kingslug]

Theres always BC as an option..PITA to get to but mostly desolate (excluding Whistler). Not that I won't go to JH or LCC..

 

[BenedictGomez]

This is also contributing to making the barrier to entry for skiing even higher. Why would anybody want to start skiing if their first day cost $200+ between a ticket and rentals let alone food and a lesson???

And this is why I think these passes are destructive to the long-term future of the industry, and I'll say it again, this cannot be modeled (until it's too late).

 

[abc]

SLC is easy and cheap to get to from all over the country. So they're getting hit. I bet though the mountains expected that. (Their lift lines and snow lines are "protected" by the limited parking and the amount of traffic the road can carry)

Jackson is being hit by the "long distance" metro area such as Denver and SLC! As a result, long lift lines appeared. I bet they didn't bargain for that!

I don't know where the crowd in Big Sky were coming from. People I shared lift with comes from all over the country. But BS is huge, and with good lifts. So the lift lines aren't an issue. But putting more skiers quickly up the mountain, a lot of the "quiet patch" were being skied quickly. In relative terms, BS is still one of the best in terms of quietness. But given how much harder to get to and how expensive to stay there, I'm not sure it's worth it with the newly increased level.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Again, sorry but you cannot blame Ikon alone. Ikon skiers only get a maximum of 7 days at JH, 5 if they went Base pass.

I dont understand why you are so definitively certain that you are correct and AdironRider is wrong.

A little back-of-the-envelope math.

In their last public statements, we learned IKON passes have hit roughly 250,000 units (all-in) of sales.

We dont know the split, but let's say it's 20:80 full versus Base (i.e. 7 days versus 5 days)

Now lets say only 15% of all IKON pass holders hit Jackson Hole this season (i.e. 85% of people didnt even ski Jackson Hole) and that the average 5 day pass skis 4 days and the average 7 day pass skis 6 days, which seems logically conservative.

That's 37,500 additional skiers on the slopes with a blended average of the FULL/BASE days which equals roughly 170,000 skier visits per season. Given last year JAX Hole announced a "record" all-time high in skier visits at 634,500, my 170,000 guesstimate is a significant slice of that. And keep in mind, that "record" slaughtered their previous record by > 70k skiers visits, meaning a more typical JH year is akin to maybe 550,000 skier visits.

Now, I can already hear you saying my 15% estimate is too high? FINE.

Even if only 5% or so of IKON users hit Jackson (that sounds too low, IMO), that's almost 60,000 skier visits, or >10% of their typical total skier days. Again, a significant bump, and my guess is more than 5% of all IKON'ers hit Jackson Hole. You'd need to have access to the pass data to know the real numbers, and only Jackson Hole and Alterra know that, but I feel confident by back-of-the-envelope analysis shows Jackson Hole is probably getting hit pretty hard over what it's prior "typical" season looked like.

 

[kingslug]

I wish SLC was cheap to get to...Delta $800.00 each. Scored tix to JH for $360.00 in Jan. Utah has been very expensive to get to for a while now.
Not that I really care..I go no matter what.

 

[abc]

Hmm... I went there for in the neighborhood of $400. That's with a late booking (2-3 week advance), and a Friday evening departure.

 

[tumbler]

Saw article today about Telluride and Epic pass and that Epic pass holders are mainly there midweek and not on the weekends. The midweek crowd is bolstering the mountain and local business. An interesting take on how the 7 days at one resort is working out.

Also Win posted in another thread the Sugarbush has seen an increase in overall skier numbers. 6% increase from Ikon, but 60% of skiers are season pass holders and ski days have increased for pass holders which is consistent with what JH and Big Sky are saying. Good conditions bring people out.

 

[abc]

Also for a solo, it's possible to do without a rental car. My buddy stayed a couple days after I left. She managed without a rental car

Motels are a tad lower than Jackson also. We made plan to ski Jackson for 3 days. But the crowd level deterred us enough we went back to SLC.

 

[cdskier]

Also Win posted in another thread the Sugarbush has seen an increase in overall skier numbers. 6% increase from Ikon, but a huge jump in number from season pass holders (60%) which is consistent with what JH and Big Sky are saying. Good conditions bring people out.

Careful...Win didn't say there was a 6% increase from Ikon. He just said 6% of overall visits are from Ikon and 60% from passholders (Sugarbush has always had a high percentage of visits being from passholders though so no surprise there).

In terms of everyone taking educated guesses...the problem is none of us have access to the actual data so we can speculate all we want. There are far too many variables. Some people buy Ikon and probably never leave the unlimited options. Some people buy Ikon and use mainly unlimited destinations and maybe only do one other trip to ONE of the 5/7 day destination options. Some may only use a couple days at the 5/7 day options if they only go for a weekend. Tons of variables and scenarios to consider. Even the fact that we're looking at one sample year makes this challenging.