The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Blurski]

I've never been but isn't that a similar concept to Club Ten?

I thought Club 10 $10k/year.

Similar but at Club Ten, you need to be sponsored by a member and voted in. you can't buy your way in I was told. They also have a chef or at least they used to.

Someone once told club 10 is $10k/year, they were a 3 person family.

 

[thetrailboss]

Maybe with A Basin, Alterra is just trying to bait people into up grading their pass especially for the spring season. I know my son always saves his A Basin days for the spring much like several on this board save their Killington days. Get them to taste test it and maybe they buy. Like I said parking will always be an issue there.

My thoughts are that they are trying to sway IKON early season skiers and riders to an Alterra resort.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original Mayflower project seperate from Deer Valley? I mean if it was, I think it is more Alterra taking advantage of an opportunity expand (and ship some of the skiing traffic over to the east side of the Wasatch instead of Park City) then "drunk spending". I don't blame them for absorbing that. Much like Vail took advantage of the situation at Park City then absorbed Canyons. The Steamboat expansion? I've only gotten there 1 day in the last 2 years but thought the gondola to the top was a good improvement.

Again, it's not clear to me what parts of Mayflower are Extel and which are Alterra. Not to beat a dead horse, but my criticism has more to do with them spending too much on lifts at Steamboat and DVR when Sugarbush has extremely tired lift infrastructure.

I only get to the east coast resorts 1 weekend a season (ok Stratton maybe a couple of days more cause its closest to home). Maybe the Sugarbush people need to have a little patience. They did do Heavens Gate and they are improving Stratton with the Tamarack replacement (which is needed). All these places are just so big and complex to run that not only do they need the financial backing but they also can't do it all at once either.

But that's my point. Why did Alterra need to do an ENTIRE ski area at DVR in two seasons when it could have been phased in over a few years? Why put in bubble chairs or high speed lifts for such short lifts when fixed grips or just regular high speed lifts would have sufficed AND replace North Ridge (which is on its last legs)? It's easy to say "be patient", but Alterra installed SO many lifts at Deer Valley that Doppelmayr literally DIDN'T have enough staff to install them. That's excessive IMHO considering that Alterra promised, and then quietly canceled, replacing North Ridge.

I've always been skeptical of Alterra and honestly have no dog in the fight with Sugarbush anymore, but I want to see Sugarbush do well and get some love.

 

[4aprice]

But that's my point. Why did Alterra need to do an ENTIRE ski area at DVR in two seasons when it could have been phased in over a few years? Why put in bubble chairs or high speed lifts for such short lifts when fixed grips or just regular high speed lifts would have sufficed AND replace North Ridge (which is on its last legs)? It's easy to say "be patient", but Alterra installed SO many lifts at Deer Valley that Doppelmayr literally DIDN'T have enough staff to install them. That's excessive IMHO considering that Alterra promised, and then quietly canceled, replacing North Ridge.

I've always been skeptical of Alterra and honestly have no dog in the fight with Sugarbush anymore, but I want to see Sugarbush do well and get some love.

You bring up a good point about the enormity of the DV project. Obviously it is one of Alterra’s comer stone resorts but why they need to do it Al once I don’t know. Maybe they are worried about the NIMBY’s ( big in Utah and Colorado) stopping part of the development if they move too slow.

I certainly want to see Sugarbush get some love. We have spent a weekend per season there since we got the Ikon and enjoy the place. I guess GMX really needs replacement . I actually don’t know if I’ve ever ridden that lift as it’s been closed when I was there but we were able to access the summit via the quad and fixed grip up top. So its closure didn’t become a problem. They did get Heaven Gate done so they are not totally ignoring the place. I believe that the Tamarack replacement at Stratton has been delayed a couple of times. Then there’Vermont itself but you know that. All too well.

I will keep my eyes open to what they do. Not only Sugarbush and Stratton but Winter Park and A Basin as well. Both came out with some pretty interesting plans involving new lifts and terrain. Can’t say I saw a time line for either. The quicker they get that gondola into the town of Winter Park the better for us.

Winter Park is supposed to be aggressive this year and hopes to get up and going asap. That gives the Ikon holder 3 front range options. (2 Alterra owned). For early season.

 

[cdskier]

You bring up a good point about the enormity of the DV project. Obviously it is one of Alterra’s comer stone resorts but why they need to do it Al once I don’t know. Maybe they are worried about the NIMBY’s ( big in Utah and Colorado) stopping part of the development if they move too slow.

I certainly want to see Sugarbush get some love. We have spent a weekend per season there since we got the Ikon and enjoy the place. I guess GMX really needs replacement . I actually don’t know if I’ve ever ridden that lift as it’s been closed when I was there but we were able to access the summit via the quad and fixed grip up top. So its closure didn’t become a problem. They did get Heaven Gate done so they are not totally ignoring the place. I believe that the Tamarack replacement at Stratton has been delayed a couple of times. Then there’Vermont itself but you know that. All too well.

I will keep my eyes open to what they do. Not only Sugarbush and Stratton but Winter Park and A Basin as well. Both came out with some pretty interesting plans involving new lifts and terrain. Can’t say I saw a time line for either. The quicker they get that gondola into the town of Winter Park the better for us.

Winter Park is supposed to be aggressive this year and hopes to get up and going asap. That gives the Ikon holder 3 front range options. (2 Alterra owned). For early season.

GMX would not be on my priority list in the near term. It is only a bit over 20 years old. Generally speaking ran fine recently. NRX, Super Bravo, and Gate House would all be much higher on the priority list. NRX is NRX and the history of problems are well documented and discussed. Gate House and Super Bravo both are older than GMX and also both run more hours during the season. Super Bravo in particular was also used in summer and fall ops for a while (although they dialed that back recently). I'd potentially even say Summit Quad is a higher priority than GMX. Sure a fixed grip should last longer than a detach, but that thing is slow and it has had on and off issues...

 

[thetrailboss]

You bring up a good point about the enormity of the DV project. Obviously it is one of Alterra’s comer stone resorts but why they need to do it Al once I don’t know. Maybe they are worried about the NIMBY’s ( big in Utah and Colorado) stopping part of the development if they move too slow.

Yeah, again, it is not at all clear what part Extel is doing and what part Alterra is doing in terms of the ski area infrastructure. Extel is doing all the real estate. The whole thing is certainly not without controversy because of the manner in which the area is being developed WITHOUT any oversight and as a "military development". I don't want to rehash that whole thing here, but needless to say it is a bit sketchy. From my POV and my read of the tea leaves, only recently has Alterra embraced the expansion. Earlier in the development process it appeared that they wanted no part of it at all. Extel was marketing it as a stand-alone ski area "with access" to Deer Valley, similar to Moonlight Basin back in the day. My read was that it became a forced marriage.

It is also interesting that you call DVR one of Alterra's "cornerstones" because up until the last 2-3 years a lot of us locals didn't see it that way. I have ridden up many-a-chairlift ride with locals and longtime DVR skiers, owners, ambassadors, etc. who, like me, see the brand being devalued by Alterra. Hell, if you could search AZ, you would see that I even had an idea that the Crowns were trying to drive DVR folks to Aspen. Those who own up there have not been happy with the increased crowding. Alterra has largely ignored them. In part, I believe, because they know that this older demographic is dying off and Alterra's crowd is much younger. Years ago the President of DVR mysteriously, and abruptly, "resigned" literally one week or so before the start of the season and coincidentally after telling DVR owners that he would restrict IKON and address crowding. My theory is that Alterra did not like that tact at all as IKON is a big revenue generator for them.

Another huge change is that Alterra is focused on real estate development. They are eager to completely get rid of the Snow Park parking lots and build more hotels, shops, etc. Stern was never into that--he would sell the land to others to finance his ski area and let the others develop and build. Alterra's base area proposal is getting a luke warm reception at best from locals in PC. A fair number don't want to see it. Granted, real estate has ALWAYS been a necessary evil for ski resorts, but it is apparent to me that it is THE focus of Alterra for Deer Valley and other resorts out west.

In my most recent visits the overall quality of service and product has been really garbage compared to how Deer Valley was. The locals see it; the new visitors don't. The Sterns and their partners always ran it as a ski area that delivered a quality experience. They did not have much, if any, real estate development or aspirations. It was all about the food, service, and amenities. As the book on the area explains, Stern was a hotelier and wanted a ski area that specialized in hospitality. That really set DVR apart because otherwise it is just an average ski area at best, and a subpar one in terms of snow in the Wasatch. Honestly, while the price was there, there was real value. Now it is just Alterra riding on the laurels of what Stern built and charging a premium for a cheaper product. One last anecdote is Alterra's recent gripe that they could not get help to run the place. When I first moved here in 2011, there was a waiting list to get a job application for ANY department at DVR. Now they are just trying to find people who have a pulse. That is quite a fall.

I am quite lucky I got to experience it as it was meant to be--for 7 years or so--before it disappeared. When I visit now I look back fondly on those memories.

This has been one hell of a thread highjack.

I certainly want to see Sugarbush get some love. We have spent a weekend per season there since we got the Ikon and enjoy the place. I guess GMX really needs replacement . I actually don’t know if I’ve ever ridden that lift as it’s been closed when I was there but we were able to access the summit via the quad and fixed grip up top. So its closure didn’t become a problem. They did get Heaven Gate done so they are not totally ignoring the place. I believe that the Tamarack replacement at Stratton has been delayed a couple of times. Then there’Vermont itself but you know that. All too well.

Yeah, as cdskier said, as crazy as it sounds, GMX is a "newer" lift. That said, Win talked about it having issues after at least one lightning strike and it is now 23 years old. But the HSQ's at LP are now all 30 years old and NRX was a reinstall in 1995 that already had 5 years of service on it.

And as to Stratton, folks in here the last season or two have noticed that Alterra gives it more investment. I think that is in large part because it is closer to NYC and Boston and has more revenue potential.

I will keep my eyes open to what they do. Not only Sugarbush and Stratton but Winter Park and A Basin as well. Both came out with some pretty interesting plans involving new lifts and terrain. Can’t say I saw a time line for either. The quicker they get that gondola into the town of Winter Park the better for us.

Winter Park is supposed to be aggressive this year and hopes to get up and going asap. That gives the Ikon holder 3 front range options. (2 Alterra owned). For early season.

Remind me--are you in CO now? I think you are. Are you excited about the rail service for WP and beyond?

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

Random thought re NRX. If the current GMX had never been built and they just left that short slow lift in place, NRX would have been replaced for real many years ago. What timeframe did it start becoming really problematic? That would've forced it's replacement because without GMX, NRX becomes an objective necessity for Mt Ellen.

So the solution is simple... Time travel back to 01-02 ish and tell Win not to install GMX. You're welcome

 

[thetrailboss]

Random thought re NRX. If the current GMX had never been built and they just left that short slow lift in place, NRX would have been replaced for real many years ago. What timeframe did it start becoming really problematic? That would've forced it's replacement because without GMX, NRX becomes an objective necessity for Mt Ellen.

So the solution is simple... Time travel back to 01-02 ish and tell Win not to install GMX. You're welcome

Honestly, NRX had issues right after relocation. The legend is that the issue was that Doppelmayr crews relocated that Poma lift and did not know the technology. I recall hearing a story about the install crew coming into the lift office with a big box full of parts saying that they "had no idea" where they went. That was in 1995. Win and company had done A LOT of work on it in their years and it still had issues. Basically, it now comes down to being a 1990 lift that was designed for a different location and sits up higher on the mountain exposed to the elements. It truly was state of the art.....in 1990. Now it is just beyond obsolete. In my years it was one of my favorite lifts as it delivered a good amount of vertical and terrain variety (and is an interesting ride to boot).

I was there for the debut of GMX 2 in 2002. That knocked our socks off as well.

 

[Tonyr]

My thoughts are that they are trying to sway IKON early season skiers and riders to an Alterra resort.

Again, it's not clear to me what parts of Mayflower are Extel and which are Alterra. Not to beat a dead horse, but my criticism has more to do with them spending too much on lifts at Steamboat and DVR when Sugarbush has extremely tired lift infrastructure.

But that's my point. Why did Alterra need to do an ENTIRE ski area at DVR in two seasons when it could have been phased in over a few years? Why put in bubble chairs or high speed lifts for such short lifts when fixed grips or just regular high speed lifts would have sufficed AND replace North Ridge (which is on its last legs)? It's easy to say "be patient", but Alterra installed SO many lifts at Deer Valley that Doppelmayr literally DIDN'T have enough staff to install them. That's excessive IMHO considering that Alterra promised, and then quietly canceled, replacing North Ridge.

I've always been skeptical of Alterra and honestly have no dog in the fight with Sugarbush anymore, but I want to see Sugarbush do well and get some love.

I am fairly certain that Extel is paying for all of the lifts on the Mayflower expansion, it was baked into the real estate build out at the new East Village base. Deer Valley just agreed to run that side of the resort.

As far as Sugarbush goes, buying a 2k pass to cut the line on one lift sounds pretty senseless to me. Good luck with that.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

I am fairly certain that Extel is paying for all of the lifts on the Mayflower expansion, it was baked into the real estate build out at the new East Village base. Deer Valley just agreed to run that side of the resort.

I believe this is correct. The only lift Alterra bought was Pinyon Express that connects new Deer Valley to old Deer Valley. Alterra is not an owner in Deer Valley East; they are an operator with a long-term lease.

 

[tumbler]

What about all the snowmaking infrastructure, is that Extel too? If people want to pay $2,000 for a private lounge at SB more power to them. It doesn't really effect me so I don't need to get worked up about it. I do like that they are thinking about the customer experience and trying new things, albeit this is geared towards a higher end clientele.

 

[urungus]

Where in the Valley House is the new private club going (eg what will now be off-limits to the unwashed masses) ?

 

[tumbler]

Where in the Valley House is the new private club going (eg what will now be off-limits to the unwashed masses) ?

It should be the mushroom but I don't think Mtn Ops is moving their offices from there.

 

[cdskier]

Where in the Valley House is the new private club going (eg what will now be off-limits to the unwashed masses) ?

And what other impacts will this cause? The rumor I've heard so far is that the blazer programs will now be eating lunch in GH instead of VH. If this new lounge is the reason, that's not good as GH was crowded enough. While in principle I don't have a problem with people paying for a private club/lounge, I do have a concern if that inconveniences everyone else. If they had found a spot that didn't impact other operations, great.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

What about all the snowmaking infrastructure, is that Extel too?

Extell's capital I believe.

 

[1dog]

And what other impacts will this cause? The rumor I've heard so far is that the blazer programs will now be eating lunch in GH instead of VH. If this new lounge is the reason, that's not good as GH was crowded enough. While in principle I don't have a problem with people paying for a private club/lounge, I do have a concern if that inconveniences everyone else. If they had found a spot that didn't impact other operations, great.

in the basement of VH? That's where Blazers were- last year they switched to GH in their dedicated lunch room. I don't think it would attract for a private club without major renovations/$$ invested. . .with still no views. I've maintained for years the that the Mushroom would make a fantastic bar. Once Castlerock bar was relegated to the no-view basement of GH, it would have actual ski bar visuals. Bar in middle and stools and tables/counter 360.

No problem with an exclusive club either. Skiers/riders come in all forms and economic backgrounds. I've never understood why the resort wasn'
t built around the village- where it just sits under utilized, and most visitors never even see.

 

[Plowboy]

What's in the original Wunderbar now?

 

[cdskier]

Isn't there some code related reason the mushroom can't be used as a public space at this point? I vaguely recall something like that when the topic came up previously of turning that into a bar area.

 

[4aprice]

If people want to pay $2,000 for a private lounge at SB more power to them. It doesn't really effect me so I don't need to get worked up about it. I do like that they are thinking about the customer experience and trying new things, albeit this is geared towards a higher end clientele.

Seems a bit pricey. We have a homeowner's lounge at Granby. It's nice but except for special occasions I would rather be with regular folks. In the case of Sugarbush Castlerock Pub is awesome and I would be more likely to hang there.