The "Sugarbush Thread"

[sugarbushskier9]

Stowe has 110 million gallons. Wow.

Yeah that was my reaction. The 10-15 million or whatever they claim they put into the snowmaking system in the last 5 years seems to be paying off. I mean just looking at the snow reports this morning and looking at a trail map, Stowe's making snow on like 3 top to bottom runs...all at once. Plus little beginner crap. That's like if Sugarbush was Downspout to the base area, Stiens, Snowball and Spring Fling along with beginner stuff or starting Gate House. It's a lot of firepower and easy to see how their early season expansion occurs.

No matter...a 3-foot dump levels the playing field quickly once snowmaking becomes obsolete due to natural snow. Let's be honest once it dumps we are all off the snowmaking runs anyway.

 

[cdskier]

I was thinking that ticket prices within a few dollars were they same price. The roll of the dice comment is the weather. I know it effects every mountain but with Stowe you have the added benefit that even if the weather hasn't cooperated at least you have their snowmaking to count on. They aren't shy about using it either. For me the extra dollars you pay is having an insurance policy. I love the terrain at the bush it's the infrastructure in place that doesn't work for me. In my opinion you get more value at Stowe then you do @ the bush

Weekend they are close in price, but to me "same" means "same" unless you add the word "almost" in there. (Yes, sorry, I'm quite literal with things like that). Mid-week though SB offers substantial savings over Stowe for tickets purchased online. SB is also substantially cheaper even on weekends for teenagers due to the difference in the age of what is considered an adult at the two resorts.

In terms of snow-making, SB has coverage on 70% of trails vs Stowe's 83%. I'm completely ok with SB not having more than 70% coverage as the trails they don't have snowmaking on are great natural trails that I wouldn't want to see snowmaking on. In terms of the extra cost at Stowe being insurance, I can see that for early season as a valid point simply because Stowe can make snow quicker and cover more trails sooner. But once you hit mid-season and SB has had a chance to hit all their trails with snowmaking, then I see the point as moot (even in a lean natural snow year). SB does a good job of covering their snow-making trails (albeit simply more slowly). SB doesn't exactly skimp out on snow-making on trails simply because they don't have a super-powerful system. They'll keep making snow as long as they need to in order to provide the coverage they want/need on their trails from what I've seen.

 

[Hawk]

I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain. It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events. This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow. This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations. For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down. But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference. I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.

Weekend they are close in price, but to me "same" means "same" unless you add the word "almost" in there. (Yes, sorry, I'm quite literal with things like that). Mid-week though SB offers substantial savings over Stowe for tickets purchased online. SB is also substantially cheaper even on weekends for teenagers due to the difference in the age of what is considered an adult at the two resorts.

In terms of snow-making, SB has coverage on 70% of trails vs Stowe's 83%. I'm completely ok with SB not having more than 70% coverage as the trails they don't have snowmaking on are great natural trails that I wouldn't want to see snowmaking on. In terms of the extra cost at Stowe being insurance, I can see that for early season as a valid point simply because Stowe can make snow quicker and cover more trails sooner. But once you hit mid-season and SB has had a chance to hit all their trails with snowmaking, then I see the point as moot (even in a lean natural snow year). SB does a good job of covering their snow-making trails (albeit simply more slowly). SB doesn't exactly skimp out on snow-making on trails simply because they don't have a super-powerful system. They'll keep making snow as long as they need to in order to provide the coverage they want/need on their trails from what I've seen.

 

[thetrailboss]

I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain. It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events. This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow. This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations. For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down. But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference. I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.

That's my point. As well as the fact that they just don't open as fast or as well as they used to. HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold.

I think it is simply the fact that making snow is very expensive and SB is trying to reduce that cost and refocus from opening early, resurfacing, and maintaining to the snow to a blow it to open and be done. At least that is what I saw and have only heard. It's a moot point to me now.

 

[Hawk]

I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying. Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it. And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas. So I am reduced to just praying for snow.

 

[benski]

I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying. Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it. And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas. So I am reduced to just praying for snow.

You seem right except water is now a limiting factor unless it is really warm so air is much less important than a couple of years ago.

 

[cdskier]

I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying. Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it. And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas. So I am reduced to just praying for snow.

Technology has changed. Didn't Win offer you the opportunity to meet in person with the snowmaking ops team to address your concerns about air and the Low-E guns vs the old air hog guns?

On a positive note, they still have the guns going at the base at the moment. A bit surprising considering the base temp on the website is showing as 32.

 

[Newpylong]

Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.


Also regarding the HKDs, the statement a bit up saying, "HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold" is patently false. If you have good air pressure they work exceptional in all conditions. The only piece of equipment that will work better in a mid to high 20 wet bulb is the K3000, and that is because they can use upwards of 500 CFM of air. You can turn a turd into a snowflake with that much compressed air.

 

[El Bishop]

So was the issue this past week water or cost? One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down and they couldn't pull water. The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low? Is that where they pull from?

 

[Plowboy]

So was the issue this past week water or cost? One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down a


nd they couldn't pull water. The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low? Is that where they pull from?View attachment 21098

Sorry but LMFAO Those are the sewage treatment ponds!!

 

[cdskier]

So was the issue this past week water or cost? One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down and they couldn't pull water. The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low? Is that where they pull from?View attachment 21098

The ponds behind the SHaRC are part of the Water Mountain Company water treatment system...so I really hope those aren't where they are pulling snowmaking water from

Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues either systemic or via dragging hoses too far then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.

I haven't heard of any pressure issues like that. What PSI did the old guns need? I do know last year it was mentioned that SB wasn't even using all the air compressors that they had since they didn't need them. So the capacity to push more air is there if needed and I would hope they are pushing the right amount to the guns so they run at optimal efficiency. The arguments some people have been making (and I can't remember if Hawk was one of them) was simply that the old guns make more snow than the new ones.

 

[El Bishop]

HA! Thanks. Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!

 

[cdskier]

HA! Thanks. Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!

There's an article about the water system (for the condos and properties on the mountain) in this year's Sugarbush Magazine.

 

[thetrailboss]

Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.


Also regarding the HKDs, the statement a bit up saying, "HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold" is patently false. If you have good air pressure they work exceptional in all conditions. The only piece of equipment that will work better in a mid to high 20 wet bulb is the K3000, and that is because they can use upwards of 500 CFM of air. You can turn a turd into a snowflake with that much compressed air.

I was comparing it to the K3000 and other ground-based guns they typically use in early season. Those work better for the marginal temps and when they need to build base.

 

[thetrailboss]

Sorry but LMFAO Those are the sewage treatment ponds!!

Was just about to say that those are water treatment facilities :lol:

 

[cdskier]

I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain. It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events. This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow. This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations. For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down. But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference. I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.

I will agree with you that they don't do a good job at resurfacing quickly. Is it a management decision or a system limitation though? I think they could do more resurfacing if they wanted to and am inclined to say it is a decision and not a limitation. A more powerful system (which people were advocating in favor of) wouldn't change that part if it is a decision to not do more resurfacing.

That's my point. As well as the fact that they just don't open as fast or as well as they used to. HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold.

I think it is simply the fact that making snow is very expensive and SB is trying to reduce that cost and refocus from opening early, resurfacing, and maintaining to the snow to a blow it to open and be done. At least that is what I saw and have only heard. It's a moot point to me now.

When are you comparing them to in terms of opening as fast or as well as they used to? In looking at opening dates for the past 15 years, it seems they've always opened right around the same date. I'm wondering if the strategy truly has changed as you're saying, or whether you're just mis-remembering them opening earlier than they really did. I'm tempted to pull up some old snow reports when I get a chance to see what they opened with over the past 10 years or so. But if you're talking about something they used to do 20 years ago, then I wouldn't have that data.

 

[thetrailboss]

When are you comparing them to in terms of opening as fast or as well as they used to? In looking at opening dates for the past 15 years, it seems they've always opened right around the same date. I'm wondering if the strategy truly has changed as you're saying, or whether you're just mis-remembering them opening earlier than they really did. I'm tempted to pull up some old snow reports when I get a chance to see what they opened with over the past 10 years or so. But if you're talking about something they used to do 20 years ago, then I wouldn't have that data.

I'm talking about them missing their normal opening (weekend before Thanksgiving) or having problems to prevent them from expanding the terrain. The ones that come to mind are 2009 and 2010....one of them we lost almost a month. Obviously warm temps screwed everyone, but other places did open and struggle to stay open. I'm also talking about what happens after they open and how slow they were in getting things open.

 

[mrvpilgrim]

Walked the mad path around the pond late Saturday with the dog. The pond was at the lowest level I have observed over the last 6-7 years. The level was at least four to five feet below the overflow spillway. Big change from early November when it seemed to only be a foot or two down on the spillway

 

[Hawk]

You have to be careful when you listen to the mountain speak. Yes the new guns use less air. So what they did was blow the same one trail at a time, used the new guns and wa-la. We use less air! Yes they have the same couple of compressors so now they only have to run one at a time. They also got rid of the extra compressors that they rented and cut rental and diesel cost. But all the talk about better snow and better coverage and faster turnaround is smoke and mirrors. It is pretty much close to the same since Summit took over. They are slowly fixing the deferred maintenance issues but are not expanding the system so they can blow more area at once and faster. That is what I have always said and my observations from skiing at the bush for 20 years.

I did not take Win up on the meeting because I did not want to get the corporate line. So what I did was marched into the compressor building at night and chatted with the night crew. They basically confirmed that they use less air now because of the new guns but blow basically the same area in one night. The gun upgrade is a money savings upgrade and has little to do with quality and quantity.

 

[Hawk]

Actually, to be 100% accurate, they have used the additional air pressure at times to use more guns when the weather permits. So there has been some increase. Not a large amount but some and only at certain times like when they are trying to expand.