The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Newpylong]

I think you're mixing up pressure and volume. You don't really add pressure, it runs at a consistent 125-150 psi. What you do is add more volume of air (CFM) when you need to.

 

[cdskier]

I'm talking about them missing their normal opening (weekend before Thanksgiving) or having problems to prevent them from expanding the terrain. The ones that come to mind are 2009 and 2010....one of them we lost almost a month. Obviously warm temps screwed everyone, but other places did open and struggle to stay open. I'm also talking about what happens after they open and how slow they were in getting things open.

I'm confused who you are comparing them to. I'm leaving K out of this, but SB's opening dates those 2 years were within a day or two of both Stowe and Okemo (using Okemo simply because they have a big snowmaking system). You can't hold SB to a different standard when everyone else was experiencing challenges due to weather those same years.

Sugarbush Stowe Okemo
2009 12/06/09 12/06/09 12/05/09
2010 11/25/10 11/24/10 11/23/10

 

[Plowboy]

HA! Thanks. Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!

True story sort-of:

''Killington: Where the Affluent Meet the Effluent."

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/06/us/vermont-dispute-grows-over-effluent-for-ski-snowmaking.html

 

[Hawk]

Yes you are right, Volume. If you want to double or triple the guns you use you need more volume. That would require additional capacity(more compressors) But not this year because there is no water. Which is certainly not Win's fault.

 

[cdskier]

Actually, to be 100% accurate, they have used the additional air pressure at times to use more guns when the weather permits. So there has been some increase. Not a large amount but some and only at certain times like when they are trying to expand.

So in the past you would max out on air and that would be your limitation (or you would ideally rent enough air compressors to have enough air capacity to also max out your water flow). Now air is out of the equation as a limiting factor with the low-e guns. So they are maxing water with plenty of air capacity to spare. The only way to expand the snowmaking would be to increase water flow capacity. I've made this point before in this thread that that's what they would need to do...but unfortunately that isn't a quick or cheap fix and maybe not possible at all for environmental/logistical reasons. The system at ME for example is operated under a grandfathered permit and supposedly can't be expanded period.

Of course Low-E is intended to save money. In theory you take the OpEx you saved on power consumption and running/renting air compressors and either put that into extending the length of time you make snow or put it into the CapEx part of your future budgets to build out more infrastructure. Is SB doing either of these? That I have no idea. If they're not doing that with at least part of the savings, then I am fully behind you (or anyone else) that argues that they should be.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm confused who you are comparing them to. I'm leaving K out of this, but SB's opening dates those 2 years were within a day or two of both Stowe and Okemo (using Okemo simply because they have a big snowmaking system). You can't hold SB to a different standard when everyone else was experiencing challenges due to weather those same years.

Sugarbush Stowe Okemo
2009 12/06/09 12/06/09 12/05/09
2010 11/25/10 11/24/10 11/23/10

Killington, Sunday River, Stowe, Mount Snow, you name it. And yes, I did take weather into consideration. I recall Hawk's comments and initially being against him, but as time went on I understood his POV and began to agree with him. Basically, SB has remained static with their operation and are trying to be more efficient and more risk averse. That's what I saw.

And it was not just the opening date but expansion of terrain thereafter, recovery time, etc. that were slow.

I think that the fact is that they have done a great job with real estate and base development. That took a lot of time and money in a bad economy. They just have not done the same with the snowmaking or lift infrastructure. Again, base areas and real estate did not matter to me--it was the skiing product that was my only focus. Sure, they replaced Valley House, but other than that, their lifts are all quite old and many are 20 years old if not older. As to snowmaking, I'd want to see more volume and better ability to recover quickly. I just was not seeing it. Maybe it's changed. All it is now for me is a topic of discussion out of personal interest because I skied there for many years.

 

[Jully]

I will agree with you that they don't do a good job at resurfacing quickly. Is it a management decision or a system limitation though? I think they could do more resurfacing if they wanted to and am inclined to say it is a decision and not a limitation. A more powerful system (which people were advocating in favor of) wouldn't change that part if it is a decision to not do more resurfacing.

Isn't that part of the critique? That Win isn't using snowmaking to resurface in the way that other resorts in the area do? Obviously the rest of the critique is that the system can't support the same rapid expansion, but then if the people Hawk talked to at the plant were correct, then part of the expansion issue is operational too.

 

[Hawk]

No, on a year that we do not have a drought they have enough water capacity to use more guns. That pipe coming up from the river that they replace is huge. I think 18". they have the capacity. It their decision.

So in the past you would max out on air and that would be your limitation (or you would ideally rent enough air compressors to have enough air capacity to also max out your water flow). Now air is out of the equation as a limiting factor with the low

 

[Jully]

I think you're mixing up pressure and volume. You don't really add pressure, it runs at a consistent 125-150 psi. What you do is add more volume of air (CFM) when you need to.

I know I've mixed that up before. That's good to know, thanks for clarifying.

 

[nhskier1969]

Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont. You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc. Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?
If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up Ripcord snowmaking on Saturday?

 

[cdskier]

Killington, Sunday River, Stowe, Mount Snow, you name it. And yes, I did take weather into consideration. I recall Hawk's comments and initially being against him, but as time went on I understood his POV and began to agree with him. Basically, SB has remained static with their operation and are trying to be more efficient and more risk averse. That's what I saw.

And it was not just the opening date but expansion of terrain thereafter, recovery time, etc. that were slow.

I already pointed out they were the same day as Stowe in 2009 and one day later in 2010. Mt Snow opened the day after SB in 2009 and the same day as SB in 2010. Using K or SR in the comparison isn't appropriate as both have massive snowmaking systems and are well known for targeting opening as early as possible regardless of whether it makes good financial sense to do so.

In terms of terrain expansion after, in 2009 SB and Stowe were neck and neck for % open until ME opened and then SB was way out ahead of Stowe. In 2010, Stowe had about twice the amount of terrain open as SB until ME opened for the season and then they jumped into the lead and held it. If ME and LP both opened on the same day, there would not be much disparity between SB and competition like Stowe (and Stowe is who I consider their closest comparative resort...).

As for the water capacity, I'm still going to disagree that they're constantly choosing not to max that out as I've heard differently that they do in fact max out water flow (although maybe not this year with the drought concerns, but last year they certainly were). If Hawk is right that it is an 18" diameter pipe coming up from the pond, then that equals a max flow of 10K GPM which would actually match exactly what I thought the capacity at LP was.

 

[benski]

Just throwing this out here, nobody here has any idea which pipes can handle additional capacity. For all we know A lot of pipes need to be upgraded before a new pump is put in. I think Win mentioned last year that they now are being limited by on mountain water pipes.

 

[sugarbushskier9]

Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont. You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc. Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?
If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up steins snowmaking on Saturday?

Yeah this is the big thing and who knows the reason...it affects opening terrain expansion, and resurfacing through the season. Why today is everyone making snow on like multiple top-to-bottom runs and SB is running 4 trails that doesn't even make up one top to bottom route?

A caption on a Stowe photo of the day from this morning States they had 190 snow guns running last night and this morning. I'd be surprised if SB had a third of that running this morning. This is the stuff that matters when if it rained yesterday then temps dropped to 10F and everything is rock hard...other resorts in their competition just destroy them in the amount of resurfacing possible in a short period of time.

 

[cdskier]

Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont. You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc. Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?
If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up steins snowmaking on Saturday?

I would love to see the real numbers and stats from everywhere too. I know SB's numbers on water flow GPM were posted in the Ski MRV forum in the past. I don't know what exactly other resorts have to compare those numbers too though. In terms of number of guns, looking back through this thread to the discussions we had early season last year at one point showed SB running 193 guns combined between LP and ME. Another post from a different day said LP alone had close to 120 guns going simultaneously (I believe that was when they had guns running on Jester, Downspout, and OG). Comparing number of trails with snowmaking from one resort to another doesn't say much. Jester for example is a long trail. So comparing Jester to a short trail at another resort is pointless. I'd say number of guns and water flow are the more important numbers.

Just throwing this out here, nobody here has any idea which pipes can handle additional capacity. For all we know A lot of pipes need to be upgraded before a new pump is put in. I think Win mentioned last year that they now are being limited by on mountain water pipes.

He did say something about that as to why they couldn't blow on certain trails together with other trails. Too bad the skimrv forum is still down. Lots of good info in those posts from the past!

 

[sugarbushskier9]

I think that the fact is that they have done a great job with real estate and base development. That took a lot of time and money in a bad economy. They just have not done the same with the snowmaking or lift infrastructure. Again, base areas and real estate did not matter to me--it was the skiing product that was my only focus. Sure, they replaced Valley House, but other than that, their lifts are all quite old and many are 20 years old if not older. As to snowmaking, I'd want to see more volume and better ability to recover quickly. I just was not seeing it. Maybe it's changed. All it is now for me is a topic of discussion out of personal interest because I skied there for many years.

Stowe has the big advantage by being owned by AIG and seeingly having endless money, as Stowe poured a ton of money into the base area village which does absolutely nothing for me. As a skier I couldn't care less about the base area development at both Sugarbush or Stowe. I walk or drive by it. But that's where you generate capital...selling real estate. Sell a multi-million dollar home on the slopes and buy yourself a new chairlift with that money. That's the thinking anyway.

Sugarbush now has the base development and they keep going with it, so hopefully down the line it pays off in new on-mountain infrastructure. Stowe is like a trust fund kid though that does it right for their skiers. They keep building in the base but at the same time dump millions into the on-hill stuff yearly it seems. Their 15 million dollar snowmaking upgrade a couple seasons ago put them more in the Killington/Okemo/Sunday River level....replacing almost all pipe, lining what seems like every trail with tower guns, fan guns, pumps, compressors, etc. Looking at the dates of construction, they've replaced or put in 10 of their 13 lifts since 2000. Think about that, that's why people say their lifts never seem to break, they are all new as far as East Coast lifts go. A lift gets old or has issues, they just rip it out and put in a new one. Not in ten years, that next summer. That's where AIG pocketbooks come in. They seem to just ask Daddy for a check and it happens.

 

[mbedle]

I recall that Stowe back in the 90's was far from perfect and actually was in pretty rough shape. I am pretty sure that AIG put their foot down and told them to get their shit together are else. I highly doubt that AIG/Chartis has an open pocketbook for Stowe to pull money from. They didn't back then, and I don't see why they would now.

 

[El Bishop]

Switching back to the short-term and snow-making THIS year, from the data below, water in the river is low. Does this not explain why they are running so few guns right now?

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?c...od=&begin_date=2016-10-01&end_date=2016-11-28

 

[cdskier]

Stowe has the big advantage by being owned by AIG and seeingly having endless money...

Their 15 million dollar snowmaking upgrade a couple seasons ago put them more in the Killington/Okemo/Sunday River level....replacing almost all pipe, lining what seems like every trail with tower guns, fan guns, pumps, compressors, etc. Looking at the dates of construction, they've replaced or put in 10 of their 13 lifts since 2000. Think about that, that's why people say their lifts never seem to break, they are all new as far as East Coast lifts go. A lift gets old or has issues, they just rip it out and put in a new one. Not in ten years, that next summer. That's where AIG pocketbooks come in. They seem to just ask Daddy for a check and it happens.

TB mentioned SB's lifts being "quite old". Yet 20 years for a properly maintained lift is not really that old. Look at K...only 2 of their lifts are younger than 20 years (and one of those 2 is at 19 years). For SB's lifts that are older, they've had major rebuilding done after they had the issues a few years ago to ensure they are now up to date. HG was rebuilt by SkyTrac and has all new mechanical and electrical components. NRX rebuilt by Dopplemayer and again has mostly new mechanical and electrical components. Super Bravo, Gate House, North Lynx, GMX, and Summit all also had significant electrical and/or mechanical replacements done in the past few years. Just because a lift is over 20 years old doesn't mean it should be replaced.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB mentioned SB's lifts being "quite old". Yet 20 years for a properly maintained lift is not really that old. Look at K...only 2 of their lifts are younger than 20 years (and one of those 2 is at 19 years). For SB's lifts that are older, they've had major rebuilding done after they had the issues a few years ago to ensure they are now up to date. HG was rebuilt by SkyTrac and has all new mechanical and electrical components. NRX rebuilt by Dopplemayer and again has mostly new mechanical and electrical components. Super Bravo, Gate House, North Lynx, GMX, and Summit all also had significant electrical and/or mechanical replacements done in the past few years. Just because a lift is over 20 years old doesn't mean it should be replaced.

True that Killington and Pico have very old lifts as well.

For Sugarbush, here is the breakdown of their major lifts....going off of my memory:

Valley House Quad: 2015 (IIRC)
Super Bravo: 1995
Heaven's Gate: 1984
Castlerock: 2001
North Lynx: 1984 lift relocated in 1995
Gatehouse Express: 1995
Slidebrook: 1995
Village: 1960 something? 1970 something?

Mount Ellen:

Sunny-D: 1960's
GMX: 2002
NRX: 1991 lift relocated in 1994 (and screwed up, unscrewed, and working OK at last check)
Summit: 1991
Inverness: 1991

That's what I recall. So the average age is between 21 and 25 years roughly. Granted though A LOT of places are not upgrading their lifts. Age and condition are not an issue if they are running....and the last few years most of them haven't had major issues. During my tenure there NRX and Super Bravo had lots of issues.

 

[tnt1234]

Well, maybe it will snow....