The "Sugarbush Thread"

[HowieT2]

I think its the russians

 

[Blurski]

The town boards are mostly made up of people that moved in to the valley in the last 30 years and are wealthy and don't want anything to change. They built their big houses but no one else can. A 200 bed employee housing building that doesn't affect them at all? The horror!

The people that bought houses during covid aren't going anywhere yet as the mortgage rates were very low when they purchased even for second home. If they have a variable rate then they are paying more. There is no housing inventory for sale and for this upcoming ski season there has not been a softening of the rental market, specifically seasonal ones.

SB and MRG might not be going anywhere but the workforce is, it's gone. Without the J-1 program they would be screwed. Something needs to happen at the State level to ease obstacles for new development that includes affordable work force housing. Less red tape on approvals and tax breaks. The population is shrinking and many of the younger generations are moving out of state.

Without getting big grant money the term affordable housing is a joke, the average cost of basic construction is between $450-$550/sf + another $750k/acre in site development costs + 10% A/E fees + 2-3% for permitting.

 

[MadPadraic]

I'm generally not a fan of localities bending over backwards to appease big corporations, but this seems like such a no brainer. More employees at Sugarbush -> better operations at Sugarbush -> a happier Valley.

 

[BodeMiller1]

I'm generally not a fan of localities bending over backwards to appease big corporations, but this seems like such a no brainer. More employees at Sugarbush -> better operations at Sugarbush -> a happier Valley.

YEP

 

[Smellytele]

I'm generally not a fan of localities bending over backwards to appease big corporations, but this seems like such a no brainer. More employees at Sugarbush -> better operations at Sugarbush -> a happier Valley.

While most people who are in the tourist business(restaurants, shops etc.) or are actually tourists themselves (2nd home owners, vaca renters) and would agree a lot of residence are not. They do not see it that way. They see it as more people mean more crowding. They may not care about new places to go out to eat or shop at. To them the 25 minute drive to waterbury or a little further really isn't that big of a deal. They don't care if their houses are worth more as they aren't selling it anytime soon it just means higher taxes.
People need to walk in other peoples shoes and not project that everyone has the same wants and needs as them. It works both ways really.

 

[MadPadraic]

We can quibble about what the population of the MRV wants (and maybe we should), but I'll just point out a minor logic flaw here. Denying sugarbush the capacity to build employee housing applies upwards pressure on existing home values and it also denies Warren additional property tax revenue. Both of these potentially contribute to higher property taxes for Warren home owners.

With regards to valley residents: we are going to have selection bias based on who we interact with. The vast majority "locals" I happen to know who don't participate in mountain sports (either summer or winter) no longer do so due to bad knees. Of course, I (along with most posters here) will have built my social circle around mountain sports and the MRV's watering holes.

Beyond that, I'll point out that the valley's general vibe is much less "if you're not third generation Vermont you aren't a Vermonter" than the state's reputation suggests.

 

[nhskier1969]

I know this is always a topic at the beginning of the year but I still don't understand why Sugarbush doesn't open the top of Ellen first? If we took a poll from season pass holders I would have to assume 99% would rather have Rim run, lower Rim run and elbow than Pushover and slow poke.

Sugarbush is really missing their core demographic. Ski resorts in Colorado open beginner terrain early but they have an incredible beginner ski and stay packages that include rentals, lessons and tickets. I could be wrong but does Sugarbush offer lessons in November? If they don't then why open beginner terrain first? It's only makes sense to open up beginner terrain if you are selling seasonal beginner lesson packages.

Look at the large resorts in the east that open up first. Killington, Sunday River and Sugarloaf. The open intermediate terrain first. Okemo opens up with Beginner terrain. I would compare Sugarbush to Killington and Sugarloaf before I would compare them to Okemo unless that's what Sugarbush wants to be.

Please don't tell me expert skiers like to ski beginner terrain at Sugarbush but I could be wrong. I'm sure the GM and thier marketing team did their statical analysis of season pas holder skier visit based on early season terrain openings If management didn't they probably wasted tens of thousands of dollars on snowmaking and opening day revenue. Great way to start the season

Edit: Sugarbush could have done demographic modeling using season pass holders demographic information. If the modeling is done correctly Sugarbush then uses that information and cross reference it to the total population in a 100 mile radius. This would help Sugarbush make an educated decision on what the total beginner audience size is. Sugarbush can use this information to open the proper terrain based on skier demographic.

 

[MadPadraic]

I think it is a combination of fewer acres to blow open and using the only high speed lift that doesn't break all the time. This is just a pipe dream, but what I'd like to see is them making use of colder temps above mid mountain to blow open Sunrise or Birch. If they could open with one of those and the green thing, then the vast majority of riders would have something more tasty to enjoy.

 

[1dog]

While most people who are in the tourist business(restaurants, shops etc.) or are actually tourists themselves (2nd home owners, vaca renters) and would agree a lot of residence are not. They do not see it that way. They see it as more people mean more crowding. They may not care about new places to go out to eat or shop at. To them the 25 minute drive to waterbury or a little further really isn't that big of a deal. They don't care if their houses are worth more as they aren't selling it anytime soon it just means higher taxes.
People need to walk in other peoples shoes and not project that everyone has the same wants and needs as them. It works both ways really.

Whatever became of the old Mexican dining place /new employee housing plans? Looked pretty good. It is a quiet valley in the spring/summer, but if there is critical need, something's gotta give. Be interesting to compare s/f construction costs of the old Bluetooth reno to low income housing to current costs. Blurski's #'s are pretty close to reality. Just blows the mind how much damage inflation has wrought.

 

[Hawk]

look a back a few pages I reported what they said at the community day.

 

[nhskier1969]

I think it is a combination of fewer acres to blow open and using the only high speed lift that doesn't break all the time. This is just a pipe dream, but what I'd like to see is them making use of colder temps above mid mountain to blow open Sunrise or Birch. If they could open with one of those and the green thing, then the vast majority of riders would have something more tasty to enjoy.

Traditionally the temperature drops 3-4 degrees every 1000 vertical. By openning the top first Sugarbush would have alot more hours to make snow

New blog just now:​

Launch Plan​

In line with the last several years, we’re focusing on a similar launch plan for early season terrain. Once we see a solid window for snowmaking temps, which right now looks like it might be November 7th, we’ll start by focusing on Gate House terrain including Pushover, Slowpoke, Sugarbear Road, Lower Hot Shot, and First Time. Why Gate House terrain? As we’ve said in the past it’s for a couple reasons. First is that we like to get terrain for all skier levels open as soon as possible. This allows us to get some beginner/intermediate terrain open right away. And because that terrain is inherently less steep, it requires less snowmaking to get open. That can be pretty important with temps so variable in November these days and makes it a safer bet for getting open on time.

From there, we’ll move to making snow on the Valley House side. This will be including Snowball, Spring Fling, Valley House Traverse and Heaven’s Gate Traverse. Coinciding with that we’ll also begin snowmaking at Mt. Ellen. Focus will be up high based on temperatures including Rim Run, Elbow, and FIS (taking advantage of our brand new pumps at mid-station), before moving down the mountain. Snowmaking on Inverness will also be a priority early season, especially with a new drive and controls in that lift ready to roll for the season.

The next pod of snowmaking terrain will be upper mountain around Heaven’s Gate. Speaking of that lift, progress marches onward on the new Heaven’s Gate Quad. Doppelmayr has been hard at work getting the new quad installed. While there were a few delays related to flying conditions and concrete pouring, things are still progressing well. At this point all the towers are in, the concrete is done, the haul rope is up, snowmaking pipe has been installed, and all remaining parts have been delivered.

Next up we’ll be splicing the rope on November 7th . Then we’ll be hanging chairs, installing lift shacks, and moving the summit patrol shack back into place. The plan is to have our Acceptance Test (essentially when Doppelmayr hands over control of the lift) the week of November 18th.

Right now the safest guess for opening Heaven’s Gate terrain is likely early December. Though, there’s certainly a possibility that it ends up being a little bit earlier or a little bit later. That’s actually pretty normal in a historic context. Looking at the past five years, Heaven’s Gate opened on December 5th, December 9th, November 24th, December 11th, and November 28th. Our projections put us right within that range. Remember, even once the lift is ready, we need to make snow on that terrain to have it skiable. We should be able to start making snow up there the week following the Acceptance Test. We’ll continue to keep you updated on that front based on how the final stage of the lift project goes and subsequent snowmaking operations to get that terrain opened.

"because that terrain is inherently less steep, it requires less snowmaking to get open. That can be pretty important with temps so variable in November these days and makes it a safer bet for getting open on time."

Reading this article you mentioned it takes alot more manmade snow to open steeper trails up early in the season. Before 2018 Sugarubush always had the top of the mtn open and we were skiing Jester, Organgrinder and Deathspout. After the 2nd groom the trails skied great with no death cookies. So if Sugarbush had that snowmaking capability seven years ago, I would have to imagine they still have that technology today.

I bet there has been twice the amount of snowmaking hours at 3,000 ft vs 1,500 the past couple of weeks. If they focused Rim Run, lower rim rum and Elbow we'd be skiing right know.

Here is the Sugarbush snow report for opening day:
Good morning Sugarbush Skiers and Riders, we are excited to announce we are open for the 24/25 season. Are opening day lineup will feature terrain for all abilities. Today get sweet turns on Pushover and Slowpoke. Don't let the names of the trails fool you. Pushover can add technical skiing if you ski it backwards on one leg. If you don't like to ski backwards try the terrain park we set up on slowpoke. If you don't like park features and you want to ski an intermediate trail, you're shit out of luck. Go to Castlerock pub and get drunk.

A few skiers on the site mentioned they won't drive 5 hours to ski Pushover and Slowpoke. My question to you, would you drive up 5 hours to ski Rim Run, Lower Rim Run and Elbow?

 

[Hawk]

Go check out Killington and Sunday river the snowmaking giants. They are having issues also. It's temperature and weather. No sence in bitchin. It aint gonna make any difference.

 

[slatham]

While I agree with Hawks sentiment about the shit weather, I do agree with nhskier regarding targeted opening day terrain. I am not in favor of starting on Gatehouse terrain-wise. But I also know that if they hold to this strategy it will eventually result in a later opening vs focusing up top. This year would have been an example, had they had the option to run Heavens Gate.

 

[MadPadraic]

No sence in bitchin. It aint gonna make any difference.

Hawk, you are a great contributor, but that is bad advice. It's like telling someone "don't worry about it" or "don't panic." Panicing, worrying, and bitching about things are often the only things we can do about a situation, and it is cruel to deny someone their only outlet.

More seriously, last year they delayed opening downspout on the expectation that if they took their time with it, it would be a bit less death-spout. My recollection was that the surface was in fact better than prior years, but not the improvement we'd hoped for.

My recollection of last year was that terrain opening was very slow compared to not only Sugarbush's peer mountains, but the small hills as well.

... This year would have been an example, had they had the option to run Heavens Gate.

Agreed. I'd still advocate for opening North Lynx earlier as it seems like those trails have less acreage than Jester, OG, or Ripcord, and the snowmaking requirement is just to blow a path on the gatehouse plateau as opposed to opening something connecting Bravo/Valley to HG. Que Sera, Sera

On the other hand, top to bottom on Jester/OG is sort of the marquee SB experience when natural trails aren't in play.

 

[cdskier]

Go check out Killington and Sunday river the snowmaking giants. They are having issues also. It's temperature and weather. No sence in bitchin. It aint gonna make any difference.

Meanwhile every ORDA resort in NY is open...

 

[foofy]

Go check out Killington and Sunday river the snowmaking giants. They are having issues also. It's temperature and weather. No sence in bitchin. It aint gonna make any difference.

Skied Killington yesterday. Great midwinter conditions on NR. Sadly, also overheard many complaints about Bush's total fail this November.

 

[Shredmonkey254]

Skied Killington yesterday. Great midwinter conditions on NR. Sadly, also overheard many complaints about Bush's total fail this November.

It’s kinda funny to look at the Walt’s web cam and see nothing but white trails and snow, then look at the webcam focused on the base of the Gatehouse chair and see a small patch of manmade snow but mostly grass, dirt and November browness. Maybe funny is the wrong word, painful is a better word choice.

 

[shadyjay]

I miss the days when Summit at Mt Ellen would open first (and close last). Seems like that would've been the better call this year, but you never know what the weather will do. Still, they could've gotten Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin' Good, and probably FIS open. And, everyone's favorite, Rob Roy!

 

[Lotso]

I miss the days when Summit at Mt Ellen would open first (and close last). Seems like that would've been the better call this year, but you never know what the weather will do. Still, they could've gotten Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin' Good, and probably FIS open. And, everyone's favorite, Rob Roy!

No real estate development or dining at ME. That's why. I agree, its's a shame the best snowmaking pod at the resort is not utilized early season.

 

[Hawk]

I understand that everybody wants to ski. Considering I have probably missed opening day only a couple of times in my life I consider myself a ski junkie. But at some point you have to face the reality of Sugarbush. I've been skiing here full time for a bunch of years and I guess I am conditioned now. You want then to blast the guns. They dont have even 1/3 of the capacity of most of the major smow making resorts. They also have water and electricity concerns. Put weather into the equation and we have this year. Me, I am obvioulsy not here for the snow making but in recent years we have not seen what makes this place special. It is what it is. I have been watching the alpine temps for the last few weeks and I am not at all surprised at where we are.

I'll put it out there. John Hammond can you please pull a magical rabbit out of your ass please!
There I said it. LOL