The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Hawk]

This was all covered at the columbus Day meeting.
- Paradise was purchased, upgraded to meet code at great cost and opened pretty much as the same operation. I think they said they have had the same issues with staffing but the place seems very active. I have been in a few time and it is all good. They were never going build housing behind it as far as I know.
- The new employee housing locations both hit snags. The one at the corner of golf course road is pending still with abutter issues I think. The other location at the old Migels location below the shark has issues with the town and permitting. They want the huge culvert upgraded and other site issues. Hammond said that they are looking at other locations so the process seems bogged down.
- The sugarbush Inn I believe is still emplyee housing like last year. Status is status-quo.

 

[tumbler]

It is so frustrating that Warren cannot work with SB to approve the employee housing at Miguels. It is in a great location, somewhat hidden and provides a great need for jobs in the Valley. Most of the people on the board have plenty of money and don't want the Valley to change at all. They view SB as a foe instead of an economic driver. I don't know all the details and generalizing but they are always anti development.
I remember years ago when Green Mtn Coffee was just starting to expand and Waitsfield denied them to expand their business so they moved to Waterbury and now we all know what they are. Imagine the tax revenue for Waitsfield if they were still in town?
Ok, off my soapbox.

 

[jimmywilson69]

These VT towns are so strange... They realize that without the ski resort there is no town. Without employees there is no ski resort.

 

[djd66]

my property taxes are north of $12K and I use ZERO services (schools, trash pickup, police and even plowing - as my road is taken care of by Sugarbush (which i pay for) But for some reason there is a sentiment of we don't like people that do not have a green plate.

 

[Hawk]

These VT towns are so strange... They realize that without the ski resort there is no town. Without employees there is no ski resort.

Jimmy, Warren and Waitsfeild would proably care less is the Sugarbush was gone. The towns were in the valley long before skiing and will be there long after. Just much more quiet, the way they like it. The world is not ski-centric like we would like to think on here.

 

[crank]

I just want to say, I have never liked Green Mountain Coffee.

 

[Hawk]

my property taxes are north of $12K and I use ZERO services (schools, trash pickup, police and even plowing - as my road is taken care of by Sugarbush (which i pay for) But for some reason there is a sentiment of we don't like people that do not have a green plate.

Ya there is that from some of the locals. But it is not a wide spread centiment. More than 50% of the people that live there are transplants that moved there over the last 30 years. At least that is what one of the Warran town officials told me last year. Maybe a guess by him. For the most part the grand majority of people I have come to know enjoy the influx of their winter friends. Most people are not cromudeons.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Jimmy, Warren and Waitsfeild would proably care less is the Sugarbush was gone. The towns were in the valley long before skiing and will be there long after. Just much more quiet, the way they like it. The world is not ski-centric like we would like to think on here.

More than 50% of the people that live there are transplants that moved there over the last 30 years. At least that is what one of the Warran town officials told me last year.

So they can either thrive as towns at the bottom of a resort or they can look all has been like Pittsfield.

Silly place I tell you...

 

[mikec142]

Jimmy, Warren and Waitsfeild would proably care less is the Sugarbush was gone. The towns were in the valley long before skiing and will be there long after. Just much more quiet, the way they like it. The world is not ski-centric like we would like to think on here.

I don't deny this and for some, it might be blissful. That said, Warren and Waitsfield would be one horse towns without SB. No or very few restaurants. No or very few retail shops. Fewer cultural opportunities.

I have very close friends who bought a place in Telluride many years ago. They spent most of their time (pre-remote work) in NJ but spent as much time as they could in Telluride. Now they are full time in Telluride. They tell me that when the mountain closes, they enjoy the peace and quiet for about two weeks and then start to go stir crazy. That's when they come back to the east coast (or travel elsewhere) for six weeks or so. They go back and thrive during the summer and early fall and then come back east for the end of October thru Thanksgiving.

My point is that without the draw of the ski/summer resort, there's less acitivity on most fronts and that's most likely not a good thing.

I love SB and VT. But if I'm really honest, it's pretty depressing during stick and mud season.

 

[crank]

So as more and more corporations ar demanding people rteurn to the office and eliminate a large percentage of remote workers - will ski town real estate prices come down?

 

[mikec142]

So as more and more corporations ar demanding people rteurn to the office and eliminate a large percentage of remote workers - will ski town real estate prices come down?

It's a good question...my gut feeling is that the very high end like Jackson, Vail, Aspen, Park City won't come down much (if at all). But if we have a combo of a couple of things like back to the office, a downturn in the economy, and climate change, the still awesome (but secondary) places will have to come down.

 

[djd66]

Warren and Waitsfield would be one horse towns without SB. No or very few restaurants. No or very few retail shops. Fewer cultural opportunities.
I love SB and VT. But if I'm really honest, it's pretty depressing during stick and mud season.

I agree on these points,... . Without Sugarbush, warren/Waitsfield would be more like Granville

 

[mikec142]

I agree on these points,... . Without Sugarbush, warren/Waitsfield would be more like Granville

Yep...that's spot on. There's a reason that real estate is worth more in Waitsfield and Warren than it is in Granville or Moretown.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't deny this and for some, it might be blissful. That said, Warren and Waitsfield would be one horse towns without SB. No or very few restaurants. No or very few retail shops. Fewer cultural opportunities.

I have very close friends who bought a place in Telluride many years ago. They spent most of their time (pre-remote work) in NJ but spent as much time as they could in Telluride. Now they are full time in Telluride. They tell me that when the mountain closes, they enjoy the peace and quiet for about two weeks and then start to go stir crazy. That's when they come back to the east coast (or travel elsewhere) for six weeks or so. They go back and thrive during the summer and early fall and then come back east for the end of October thru Thanksgiving.

My point is that without the draw of the ski/summer resort, there's less acitivity on most fronts and that's most likely not a good thing.

I love SB and VT. But if I'm really honest, it's pretty depressing during stick and mud season.

I completely agree. If folks want to see what Waitsfield and Warren would be like without the ski areas, then go check out Hancock or some other isolated towns in the NEK.

 

[HowieT2]

It's a good question...my gut feeling is that the very high end like Jackson, Vail, Aspen, Park City won't come down much (if at all). But if we have a combo of a couple of things like back to the office, a downturn in the economy, and climate change, the still awesome (but secondary) places will have to come down.

I think there's a softening in the short term rental market which will lead to some of the people who bought during the pandemic surge for that purpose (and are also now facing higher mortgage costs) to sell their properties leading to a decline in prices.

 

[Hawk]

I nice couple just bought in my building for a mint. it was 50K more than the last unit that sold. It's cetainly not going down today. Maybe in a couple of years.

 

[Hawk]

I agree on these points,... . Without Sugarbush, warren/Waitsfield would be more like Granville

No not exactly the same as Granville or Randolph. Wish a population of about 3600 combined it is quite a bit larger. Also There are many wealthy families there because of the horse farms and the airport. There would still be resturaunts and business but much more tranquil.

 

[mikec142]

No not exactly the same as Granville or Randolph. Wish a population of about 3600 combined it is quite a bit larger. Also There are many wealthy families there because of the horse farms and the airport. There would still be resturaunts and business but much more tranquil.

You are correct, they wouldn't become "exactly" like Granville. But they would certainly become more like Granville. It might take a generation or even two, but it would happen.

How long do you think it would take for some of those "wealthy" families who are there by choice rather than neccessity to move to places that have more cultural appeal? There are plenty of places in the country where you can enjoy the great outdoors and get a great meal.

Obvs this is all just a thought exercise because SB isn't going anywhere. But it is worth thinking about when the towns make decisions that make it harder for SB to run a successful business.

 

[tumbler]

The town boards are mostly made up of people that moved in to the valley in the last 30 years and are wealthy and don't want anything to change. They built their big houses but no one else can. A 200 bed employee housing building that doesn't affect them at all? The horror!

The people that bought houses during covid aren't going anywhere yet as the mortgage rates were very low when they purchased even for second home. If they have a variable rate then they are paying more. There is no housing inventory for sale and for this upcoming ski season there has not been a softening of the rental market, specifically seasonal ones.

SB and MRG might not be going anywhere but the workforce is, it's gone. Without the J-1 program they would be screwed. Something needs to happen at the State level to ease obstacles for new development that includes affordable work force housing. Less red tape on approvals and tax breaks. The population is shrinking and many of the younger generations are moving out of state.

 

[HowieT2]

I nice couple just bought in my building for a mint. it was 50K more than the last unit that sold. It's cetainly not going down today. Maybe in a couple of years.

That's what I'm hoping