The "Sugarbush Thread"

[nhskier1969]

Gotta love the GM at Stratton, they're dropping ropes left and right. I remember when Sugarbush use to do that

 

[cdskier]

I think you are missing the point. It’s open the two lifts at mt. Ellen INSTEAD of freaking gatehouse. the snow has been sitting up there and a lot of snow had already been made. Open something that people who ski early season actually want to ski. i couldn’t agree with Cheetah and Tin more.

That ship sailed...they're not moving early/late ops back to ME over LP. And they're not going to suddenly close GH/LP and switch everything over to ME tomorrow instead.

I agree GH is a crappy first offering...which is exactly why I don't waste my time going up there now. (Re-read any of my old posts from previous years and you'll see I've always been against the GH first idea). I agree they should have had better planning knowing HG was being replaced and they likely had no upper mountain option at LP if they didn't have temps down low. But those are decisions that would have needed to happen weeks ago. Now it is too late. People here are saying they should pivot to open ME "now" which is entirely unrealistic.

 

[Getskied]

Very different opening some trails on natural with questionable conditions when you at least have SOME trails available that are available for the masses vs running a lift now to terrain that has nothing ready for non-diehards.

This exactly. If Snowball/Spring Fling are good to go this weekend then they will open a bunch of natural trails off Gadd Peak as well. Sugarbush patrol is pretty liberal but management just won’t open lifts without any confidently well covered routes for the masses, save CR.

 

[Cheetah440]

You missed the whole point that it isn't "just" 2 extra lifts...

I get it. They have to plan and the plan in place is not easy to pivot and open ME when it’s scheduled for ~Dec 20. I get it, lots more than just a lift, it’s the entire mountain ops they don’t have plans to enact until a set date. Understandable BUT damn, if we got back to back bombs and had 5ft just sitting there, would be a bad look not having the capability to pivot. Again, this isn’t a mom and pop operation, it’s winter, this is a world class ski resort. Be better.

 

[Getskied]

I get it. They have to plan and the plan in place is not easy to pivot and open ME when it’s scheduled for ~Dec 20. I get it, lots more than just a lift, it’s the entire mountain ops they don’t have plans to enact until a set date. Understandable BUT damn, if we got back to back bombs and had 5ft just sitting there, would be a bad look not having the capability to pivot. Again, this isn’t a mom and pop operation, it’s winter, this is a world class ski resort. Be better.

Not saying it would have been prudent, profitable or safe, but if it was 1999 there is a 90% chance that Otten would be spinning CR as well as slide brook this weekend.

Unrelated and I‘m not sure if anyone noticed but Bolton ops changed it up this year and decided to open the upper mountain with Hard Luck to start instead of useless Sherman’s Pass. Beginners get the lower lift and more advanced skiers get Vista. Kudos to them for pivoting their operations plan to cater to more types of skiers (including real actual skiers) on day 1.

 

[Cheetah440]

Not saying it would have been prudent, profitable or safe, but if it was 1999 there is a 90% chance that Otten would be spinning CR as well as slide brook this weekend.

Unrelated and I‘m not sure if anyone noticed but Bolton ops changed it up this year and decided to open the upper mountain with Hard Luck to start instead of useless Sherman’s Pass. Beginners get the lower lift and more advanced skiers get Vista. Kudos to them for pivoting their operations plan to cater to more types of skiers (including real actual skiers) on day 1.

LOL, the go go go days, sadly the duopoly are killing them. God bless MRG keeping it alive.

 

[MadPadraic]

Related: Are guns still going on SB/SF? Can't really tell from camera

Yes, they had them lined up the final pitch lookers right on SF late this afternoon. There were no visible snowmaking clouds on anything off of Heavens Gate, Superbravo or North Lynx.

what's the gain from doing this? It really doesn't seem like a prudent business decision.

The entire Alterra/Vail model is selling passes that combine local with destination. They use their local passes to upsell very profitable vacations out west. Generally speaking, they are selling the entire product, which includes early/late season days, which will have lower skier volume. Without knowing either (1) how revenue is recognized across mountains based on skier visits, or (2) actual data on cost of open up a lift/revenue from usage + f&b sales + good will (not the accounting term, but the concept) its hard to arm chair what is a good decision vs what isn't from a business perspective. However, we still have the right to be upset regardless of the wisdom (or lack thereof) of management's early season roll out.


However, I had previously thought that Sugarbush was the crown jewel of their Eastern properties, but it definitely seems that Alterra doesn't view it that way.

 

[Lotso]

Bravo and ME base cams back up. Progress.

 

[cdskier]

The entire Alterra/Vail model is selling passes that combine local with destination. They use their local passes to upsell very profitable vacations out west. Generally speaking, they are selling the entire product, which includes early/late season days, which will have lower skier volume. Without knowing either (1) how revenue is recognized across mountains based on skier visits, or (2) actual data on cost of open up a lift/revenue from usage + f&b sales + good will (not the accounting term, but the concept) its hard to arm chair what is a good decision vs what isn't from a business perspective. However, we still have the right to be upset regardless of the wisdom (or lack thereof) of management's early season roll out.

It really doesn't require in depth knowledge of these factors to know that opening an entire second mountain at this point in the season to make a handful of diehards happy isn't going to move the needle on Ikon sales one way or the other.

 

[ducky]

J1s have arrived and are currently being oriented and trained. Some relief on the employee front.

Looked at Lower Hotshot/Waterfall yesterday from the lift, where a patroller had skied it, and at the apex of every turn rocks were visible and had been hit. If that's what Twist and Moon are like, I'd rather wait. Steeper the trail, the more rocks you're going to catch. Hit them wrong and that's an edge torn off or possibly an ACL.

Not sure if Shred understands but ME will not be opened early by anything meaningful - maybe a Friday early for passholders. They are sticking to script.

Must have gusted to 60mph at our place in the valley last night.

 

[Hawk]

People keep saying Altera, Altera. They are not making day to day decisions. It has been stated by the mountain and Altera's management multiple times over muntiple media that they will not micro manage the goings on at Sugarbush. As long as the ticket sales are normal and the revenue Vs expenditure is not out of whack they are happy. A couple of dozen diehards on a message board does not move the needle.

The decisions that Sugarbush are making this year are clearly based on the budget monies they have. Starting over at Ellen may have been a small cost to them but a cost none the less. They were planning on getting better snowmakng windows and lost. What can I tell you. For every uninformed opinion on here I am sure there are reasons why they chose what they chose. I am of the opinion that they are not just mailing it in and making rendome decisions. John Hammond and the Ops team have been here for years and are skiers. People make it sound like there is some conspiricy to fuck the skiers. It's just not that way. Don't get me wrong I want to ski but people have to understand that in a thin snow year with bad temps, this is what we are going to get until they build a better system and spend some money.

You guys want to impact things then band together and don't show up. I highly doubt that is going to happen based on the web cam on opening day.

Carry on. I am headed to another Altera offering on Saturday and will return when they open up HG and VH.

 

[drjeff]

From the 1000 ft level, sounds like the mtn ops folks at Sugarbush have been fighting 2 variables they really can't control the last month or so.... #1 a wet bulb temp down low that hasn't been in their favor, and #2 low levels of water in their snowmaking pond and more importanly very little to not enough flow in their water source for their pond for refilling purposes.

When you factor that in with the HG project that was always going to create a bit of a different terrain roll out plan for their start up, you get what has happened.

Fully agree that much better, clearer communication earlier on would of made a difference for the most passionate of supporters. But the other say 97% of their customers proabably wouldn't have noticed, and that likely played into some of their communication strategy recently

 

[MadPadraic]

@Hawk, Alterra corporate is the group which decided how much to spend on snowmaking infrastructure, pond upgrades, and new lifts.

 

[Hawk]

There is a master plan. They started the upgrades on Gate House. That is where the new pipe, heads and guns are so far. The rest has not been drawn and permited. They do not tell sugarbush what to do in regards to an operations plan. I'm sure it is all simple to you but it isn't.

 

[tumbler]

I'm just hoping they can open VH with SB-Fling tomorrow to spread out the crowd.

 

[Lotso]

I'm just hoping they can open VH with SB-Fling tomorrow to spread out the crowd.

Agreed. Walk up terrain park at ME, though

 

[Cheetah440]

It really doesn't require in depth knowledge of these factors to know that opening an entire second mountain at this point in the season to make a handful of diehards happy isn't going to move the needle on Ikon sales one way or the other.

If this were mid November I would agree. It’s winter. They should be prepared to open, it’s winter after all. Again, this isn’t a mom and pop operation. If MRG can open up at a weeks notice (an actual mom and pop operation), one would expect a near Billion dollar operation to be able to pivot.

People keep saying Altera, Altera. They are not making day to day decisions. It has been stated by the mountain and Altera's management multiple times over muntiple media that they will not micro manage the goings on at Sugarbush. As long as the ticket sales are normal and the revenue Vs expenditure is not out of whack they are happy. A couple of dozen diehards on a message board does not move the needle.

The decisions that Sugarbush are making this year are clearly based on the budget monies they have. Starting over at Ellen may have been a small cost to them but a cost none the less. They were planning on getting better snowmakng windows and lost. What can I tell you. For every uninformed opinion on here I am sure there are reasons why they chose what they chose. I am of the opinion that they are not just mailing it in and making rendome decisions. John Hammond and the Ops team have been here for years and are skiers. People make it sound like there is some conspiricy to fuck the skiers. It's just not that way. Don't get me wrong I want to ski but people have to understand that in a thin snow year with bad temps, this is what we are going to get until they build a better system and spend some money.

You guys want to impact things then band together and don't show up. I highly doubt that is going to happen based on the web cam on opening day.

Carry on. I am headed to another Altera offering on Saturday and will return when they open up HG and VH.

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy, they communicated this roll out plan early in Nov quite clearly and I think they have communicated quite well. It’s just a terribly flawed opening plan that’s all.

 

[NewEnglander77]

In the absence of consistent and open communication, the speculation and theories will run rampant. Could easily be nipped in the bud. One thing that has been very clear is that they are not doing a good job at communicating. I will not specualte as to why other than to say it could be incompetance (inexcusable) or intentional (percieved as arrogant). In the day and age of cams, X, Instagram and other socials there seems to be little excuse for not getting ahead with messaging and using those tools to draw in people with stories. The news and stories come in dribs and drabs. The brands killing it today are very active and engaging all the time.

 

[cdskier]

If this were mid November I would agree. It’s winter. They should be prepared to open, it’s winter after all. Again, this isn’t a mom and pop operation. If MRG can open up at a weeks notice (an actual mom and pop operation), one would expect a near Billion dollar operation to be able to pivot.

They don't get an unlimited budget... You seem to not understand at all how budgeting works in corporations if you think they can just suddenly increase OpEx spending several weeks ahead of the scheduled plan to run an entire second base area to appease a handful of diehards. And technically winter starts December 21st... We're not even a full week into December. This is early season by any normal measurement.

 

[nhskier1969]

If this were mid November I would agree. It’s winter. They should be prepared to open, it’s winter after all. Again, this isn’t a mom and pop operation. If MRG can open up at a weeks notice (an actual mom and pop operation), one would expect a near Billion dollar operation to be able to pivot.

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy, they communicated this roll out plan early in Nov quite clearly and I think they have communicated quite well. It’s just a terribly flawed opening plan that’s all.

I don't blame the snow making team. I blame management and I think this is a budget issue. I imagine Altera set the budgets for all the Ski Resorts. Maybe Altera gave a larger budget to Stratton this year. New Yorkers spend more money than locals.