Trails: Groomers vs Natural

[Snowlover]

I'm not really sure what we are discussing but their will always be a need for groomers in the east. Without groomers, our seasons would end much sooner or we would be taking our skis off and carrying them back to the lift because pretty much all of the low elevation trails/runouts will be grass by early March. God knows, I love natural trails but you need both to stay in business.

I don't know what others are saying, but I'm saying is don't groom after an overnight dump on at least 50% of the terrain. I'm fine with grooming every single day other than that. That really has nothing to do with staying in business. Some places already do that and their fine.

 

[MadMadWorld]

I don't know what others are saying, but I'm saying is don't groom after an overnight dump on at least 50% of the terrain. I'm fine with grooming every single day other than that. That really has nothing to do with staying in business. Some places already do that and their fine.

I agree. The only exception I have is when it's really light snow and their isn't a solid base underneath. I got a nice core shot 2 years ago at Magic after a big early season storm. If groomer helps create an early season base then I think it makes sense to groom a bit more.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Love ungroomed terrain but it has to be managed. When you see a period of time where the window of weather is good leave it ungroomed, but don't lose the trail for none grooming when the weather turns bad. (we are talking east coast here).

Agreed, and I think most do it right. Occasionally you see the odd area that obstinately refuses to groom their natural trails even though they know fog or a warm rain is coming, which I think is just dumb. It's okay in those rare instance to groom a "natural" trail, we get it.

I wonder if un-groomed trails will become the "glades skiing" of the next few years? Skiing in the woods has become mainstream over the past half-dozen or so years.

I've thought about this myself, and IMO the answer is yes, and mostly as a function of the explosion of glades skiing. I know we've had this discussion before, and I have no problem outing myself as a "natural snow snob" - which is one of the reasons I love Plattekill, as well as why I rarely ever ski the Poconos even though I can be booting-in in < an hour.

Jiminy Peak which even if they get 18" of snow they will probably groom it all flat overnight except maybe 1 or 2 trails

(((((crosses Jiminy Peak off list of places to ever visit)))))

There's no reason resorts should be grooming all the fresh powder off the their trails and ruining fantastic conditions.

For Dax or VT I agree with you, and I'd even go so far as to say that the #1 most common destroyer of great east coast skiing isn't rain or fog, but over-grooming.

That said, there are some places, like the Poconos that get virtually zero natural snow where I 100% understand the "mash all fresh snow" mentality.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Sugarbush is kind of like this already... a lot of natural snow terrain that never gets touched by a groomer.

They do it right too because they'll leave these trails open in the spring until they can not possibly be skied any more. Get your rock skis ready for some spring time fun!

 

[Snowlover]

I agree. The only exception I have is when it's really light snow and their isn't a solid base underneath. I got a nice core shot 2 years ago at Magic after a big early season storm. If groomer helps create an early season base then I think it makes sense to groom a bit more.

That has nothing to do with grooming. That's because magic doesn't make snow and it is mostly natural snow reliant. If you build a 2 foot base(which isn't that hard to do), what you described will never happen. That has to do with little snow cover, not grooming.

 

[dlague]

I am not prejudice! I will ski a groomer or au natural. The day if or after a dump of snow is super fun with powder then later soft powder bumps. Not a fan of skied off bump trails! Not a fan of super flats either!

 

[Snowlover]

(((((crosses Jiminy Peak off list of places to ever visit)))))




For Dax or VT I agree with you, and I'd even go so far as to say that the #1 most common destroyer of great east coast skiing isn't rain or fog, but over-grooming.

+1 I will say that even area's like the pocono's or ct that get low natural snow should leave an ungroomed treat for the locals. I know that a place that does that is where I'll be giving my hard earned money to. I like skiing groomers too. The thing is that you can ski groomers anytime you want. Powder is a real treat.

 

[Cornhead]

That would really suck if you got a big dumping. Nothing better than slarving right accross the center of a trail. Better than nothing though I guess. How do people in the lake effect belt not know how to ride powder?!!? How's that ski area up on tug hill? I'm suprised the tug doesn't have more/bigger ski area's You ever go there? They must get absolutely dumped on. More snow up there than northern vt.

Tug Hill Plateau gets tons of snow, but there aren't very many "hills" up there. More of a snowmobiler's paradise, they sell premium gas without ethanol for the sleds up there. Snow Ridge is only 500ft of vertical, so yes, there can be too much snow, see my TR of 12/13. There is a steep ravine not on the map that skied quite nicely with that much snow. Heading up there tomorrow, supposed to get about 10" of LES. Happy New Year!

 

[MadMadWorld]

That has nothing to do with grooming. That's because magic doesn't make snow and it is mostly natural snow reliant. If you build a 2 foot base(which isn't that hard to do), what you described will never happen. That has to do with little snow cover, not grooming.

Yes if there is a base you are correct but it's not just Magic. I had a similar experience at Jay. that was my only argument to justify grooming natural train.

 

[Snowlover]

Tug Hill Plateau gets tons of snow, but there aren't very many "hills" up there. More of a snowmobiler's paradise, they sell premium gas without ethanol for the sleds up there. Snow Ridge is only 500ft of vertical, so yes, there can be too much snow, see my TR of 12/13. There is a steep ravine not on the map that skied quite nicely with that much snow. Heading up there tomorrow, supposed to get about 10" of LES. Happy New Year!

There's never such a thing as too much snow. 500ft is plenty to have fun at small local area. What's a tr?

 

[4aprice]

I've thought about this myself, and IMO the answer is yes, and mostly as a function of the explosion of glades skiing. I know we've had this discussion before, and I have no problem outing myself as a "natural snow snob" - which is one of the reasons I love Plattekill, as well as why I rarely ever ski the Poconos even though I can be booting-in in < an hour.

That said, there are some places, like the Poconos that get virtually zero natural snow where I 100% understand the "mash all fresh snow" mentality.

I respectfully disagree. In the 10 years I have been a Camelback pass holder I've gotten lucky enough to hit powder several times when the Pocono's got a storm. They do not groom everything at all. Coolmore, Sun Bowl and maybe Meadows would be it. Yes there is limited acreage there and it gets skied out quickly but not because of the mountain grooming. Had an epic powder day, St Patties Day there back in 2007 or 08 with 17" and no crowd and Presidents Day a maybe 3 yrs ago with about 10.

Also when the weather is right they dust the moguls on Lower Cleo and let the skiers ski them in. I love it when they do that.

Alex


Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[Snowlover]

I respectfully disagree. In the 10 years I have been a Camelback pass holder I've gotten lucky enough to hit powder several times when the Pocono's got a storm. They do not groom everything at all. Coolmore, Sun Bowl and maybe Meadows would be it. Yes there is limited acreage there and it gets skied out quickly but not because of the mountain grooming. Had an epic powder day, St Patties Day there back in 2007 or 08 with 17" and no crowd and Presidents Day a maybe 3 yrs ago with about 10.

Also when the weather is right they dust the moguls on Lower Cleo and let the skiers ski them in. I love it when they do that.

Alex


Lake Hopatcong, NJ

Yeah +1. Area's that have a 40 inch average get a few powder days every year. I get them here in ct as well.

 

[Cornhead]

There's never such a thing as too much snow. 500ft is plenty to have fun at small local area. What's a tr?

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/126602-Snow-Ridge-Opening-Day-2013-2014-Season

 

[Snowlover]

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/126602-Snow-Ridge-Opening-Day-2013-2014-Season

That looks like SOOO much FUN. Need a really wide ski and that would be all time. It's funny how northern vt try to claim their the snowiest and claim in the mid to high 300 inches of snow a year. Tug hill is by far the snowiest region in the northeast. Tug hill averages about 250/year. Someone isn't measuring right.lol It's all front loaded too. Late dec/jan is insane up there. They once got 77 inches in 24 hours at montague. American record for most snowfall in 24 hours. Just crazy stuff. Too bad they don't have the topography of vt. It's a plateau. I wish it was a ridge line. That would be THE major destination in the northeast if they had the terrain.

I wish I had a hill like that near me that got that amount of snow even if it was only 500 feet vertical.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I respectfully disagree. In the 10 years I have been a Camelback pass holder I've gotten lucky enough to hit powder several times when the Pocono's got a storm. They do not groom everything at all.

Obviously it's possible, but the reality is that "powder days", real powder days, are extremely rare in the Poconos. What's not rare is for Camelback to get 2" of snow and scream "POWDER DAY" on all their social media, which annoys the friggin' crap out-of-me.

And my guess is that that day when you skied on 10" or 17" etc.... was likely that day only or that day and maybe the next, then they quickly mashed down that "white gold" to add to and protect the base. Whereas more northerly resorts will let that 10" or 17" stay put until it's skied off. Poconos hills arent afforded that luxury. They have to treat every inch of snowfall like Ebenezer Scrooge greedily protecting and hovering over his ducats.

 

[ScottySkis]

That looks like SOOO much FUN. Need a really wide ski and that would be all time. It's funny how northern vt try to claim their the snowiest and claim in the mid to high 300 inches of snow a year. Tug hill is by far the snowiest region in the northeast. Tug hill averages about 250/year. Someone isn't measuring right.lol It's all front loaded too. Late dec/jan is insane up there. They once got 77 inches in 24 hours at montague. American record for most snowfall in 24 hours. Just crazy stuff. Too bad they don't have the topography of vt. It's a plateau. I wish it was a ridge line. That would be THE major destination in the northeast if they had the terrain.

I wish I had a hill like that near me that got that amount of snow even if it was only 500 feet vertical.

So do we all wish that. I think snowy Ridge averages more like 400 plus that what Syracuse NY gets from lake effect. I love the lakes it is awesome when Catskills get some well one hill I most like not a resort.

 

[Snowlover]

And my guess is that that day when you skied on 10" or 17" etc.... was likely that day only or that day and maybe the next, then they quickly mashed down that "white gold" to add to and protect the base. Whereas more northerly resorts will let that 10" or 17" stay put until it's skied off.

You think "powder" stays for days in vermont? haha. Yeah maybe ice busted crud. The only place powder stays powder for DAYS after a storm is out west in the backcountry. Also, the effect grooming has protecting a base is overstated.

 

[billski]

They once got 77 inches in 24 hours at montague. American record for most snowfall in 24 hours. Just crazy stuff. Too bad they don't have the topography of vt. It's a plateau.

With snow like that, you could ski off a cliff and not get hurt!

 

[billski]

You're obviously not their target demographic!

 

[billski]

You think "powder" stays for days in vermont? haha. Yeah maybe ice busted crud. The only place powder stays powder for DAYS after a storm is out west in the backcountry. Also, the effect grooming has protecting a base is overstated.

+1