Uphill Traffic Raises Safety Issues (via MRG)

[Nick]

found on MRG's Facebook page,

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_reporter/sports/article_998fd7fa-24ad-11e0-9cce-001cc4c002e0.html

People who like to earn their turns see hiking uphill as a workout, with the bonus of skiing or riding afterward.
But people responsible for mountain safety worry that the uphill traffic can be a hazard or inconvenience to the thousands of people headed downhill.
Uphill traffic is slowly becoming more commonplace at many ski areas in Vermont and elsewhere. They have taken varying positions on the practice. The Jay Peak and Smugglers’ Notch ski resorts permit uphill traffic, but Stowe Mountain Resort does not.
Stowe officials worry about downhill-uphill collisions, and possible interference with snow-grooming operations.
The mountain’s position is that snow grooming can occur anywhere, anytime, and no safe haven can be guaranteed for the uphill traffic.
“We don’t want anyone to take for granted that there will not be operations occurring at any given location,” said Karen Wagner, risk manager at the Mt. Mansfield Co.
Wagner said that, even on closed trails, groomers and other snow vehicles could be operating.
Wagner said she hasn’t seen any significant increase in uphill traffic in the past few years, but neither is the activity shrinking.
Might Stowe someday make allowances for uphill traffic, given the positions taken by Jay and Smuggs?
“We definitely discourage it, both when we are open and when we are not open,” Wagner said.

More at the link above! Thoughts?

 

[snowmonster]

Interesting. I always assumed that skinning uphill was allowed at Stowe since the ski trails were on public land and I always encounter people skinning up the Toll Road. The Goodman book directs skinners to take Tyro, Sunrise and Standard to Ridgeview to get to the Bruce Trail.

 

[KevinF]

I was at Stowe today (Jan. 2nd) and I encountered uphill traffic. I saw the uphill people twice. I remember they were heading up Gondolier (i.e., right under a lift). I think if somebody at Stowe actually cared they would have been told to turn around.

 

[wa-loaf]

Seems to me the Meathead guys wouldn't have a career if Stowe didn't let them hoof it up.

 

[riverc0il]

Mansfield is quite the uphill mecca so I am surprised to hear SMR is so against it. I figured if that was the case, they would have taken a more aggressive approach. Often times ski areas seem to put the rules down with an iron clad fist and then look the other way. In other words, we are legally protected but don't want to deal with the negative PR of enforcing the rules.

The whole state land argument is such bullocks. SO tired of hearing that argument. Walk into the Oval Office if you truly believe you should have open access to any land owned by the state. Fact is that the land is leased and lease operators can make the rules of the road while the land is in their care. Those that truly think state land should be open access and lease operators can't stop them should have the moral conviction to follow through on that libertarian ideal to all of its ultimate conclusions.

Being a frequent turn earner at ski areas, I always opt for discretion. Never skin open slopes during operation. Always stay far away from any personnel or operational equipment and snow making operations. Keep a low profile and you are out of sight, out of mind. The turn earning culture is alive and well at many ski areas. Often times that turn earning culture are often die hard and pass holders of the mountain they are skinning. If the mountain wants to make a mountain out of a molehill, they are in their right to kick skinners off the mountains... and they'll earn a major black eye, negative press, and lost revenue in doing so.

Big thumbs up to those ski areas that openly embrace turn earners. Mad River and Magic embrace skinning with open arms. Jay embraces it on the down low.

 

[billski]

I always opt for discretion. Never skin open slopes during operation. Always stay far away from any personnel or operational equipment and snow making operations. Keep a low profile and you are out of sight, out of mind.

If in fact SMR has a "Risk Management" specialist, this tells you something straight away. Any large corporation has to mitigate its risks. Talking privately to corporate attorneys and mountain management, I think we all know that the disclaimer on the back of each ticket is only as good as the paper it is written on. It's really there to keep 99% thought of liability out of the customer's mind.

Such is the case at SMR I would argue. State the company line. Enforce it when you can (when there is a specific, observed infraction). You can't be everywhere and it's not at all practical to have stake outs. It's a lot like the seat belt law. You won't get a ticket for it alone, it's usually just in combination with another incident.

Reminds me of the original snowboard ban. It wasn't just fear of the unknown, but it was fear of increased liability, which never really came to be.

that's my $0.02. Now it's back to the hallucinogenic effects of dreaming of snow.

 

[riverc0il]

Yea, I thought the "Risk Management" title was a bit bonkers for a ski area. But with a resort Stowe's size and the number of employees and areas they have, it doesn't surprise me too much that they would have someone in HR responsible for health and safety. "Director of Health & Safety" would seem like a more normal title than Risk Management Specialist or whatever. But I'm sure the job description is pretty much the same.

There is certainly no reason to fear uphill traffic from a practical sense, especially up hill traffic on closed trails. The fear is certainly liability, the dreaded "what if" scenario. Though I don't know how someone could hold a mountain liable if they are violating policy.

 

[steamboat1]

I can see why areas would be concerned about uphill hiking on their trails. Not everyone will hike on closed trails or out of the way places, I'd wager the majority don't. Most will hike on trails open to downhill skiing/boarding. Even if the hiker is trying to be conscience by hiking the side of the trail that is exactly where the most danger would probably be. How many of the better skiers or hot shots hug the side of a trail trying to find better snow. You see it all the time even on fresh powder days. Not to mention the fact that hiking to ski down a trail that the area has invested money in to blow snow & groom is very akin to theft of services. Hiking in the back country fine, hiking on a open ski area not so much.

 

[billski]

Yea, I thought the "Risk Management" title was a bit bonkers for a ski area. .

Well, they are owned by an insurance company :roll:

 

[BigJay]

Best argument for MRG to not like uphill trafic: They rely on natural snow experience.

Poachers kill their market.

I know a lot of people in VT who ride MRG exclusively when the resort is closed...

Might as well preserve snow for their customers...

That's the logic i perceive from their statement.

 

[SteveInCT]

Last year (can't remember where I was), I encountered uphill traffic and the people had their dog off leash. Don't get me wrong, the dog was well behaved and wasn't in the trail, but what if something made the dog run into the trail when I was passing by? Sure, the dog might have never chased a squirrel before, but most dogs will go if they perceive a threat and we, as humans, never know when that will happen. I guess my point is -- if you are going uphill with your dog on an open trail, keep him on leash until you are away from people.

 

[thetrailboss]

Often times ski areas seem to put the rules down with an iron clad fist and then look the other way. In other words, we are legally protected but don't want to deal with the negative PR of enforcing the rules.

I think that this is what they are doing.

Being a frequent turn earner at ski areas, I always opt for discretion. Never skin open slopes during operation. Always stay far away from any personnel or operational equipment and snow making operations. Keep a low profile and you are out of sight, out of mind.

Agreed. This is the only way to do it, despite what one poster said about 2 years ago after he skinned up through an active pre-season snowmaking operation and wondered why he was yelled at by management.

Personally I don't care. Most folks who skin use good etiquette and stay to the side of the trail and are mindful of downhill traffic. They are diehard skiers and mountaineers and know what to do. What is problematic are the folks who decide to go for a snowshoe or hike to go sledding and decide to go up the middle of a trail or in blind corners. I've seen these folks around the holidays and it goes without saying that they don't spend much time on the mountain so they don't know what to do/proper etiquette and it creates a dangerous situation.

 

[Nick]

Best argument for MRG to not like uphill trafic: They rely on natural snow experience.

Poachers kill their market.

I know a lot of people in VT who ride MRG exclusively when the resort is closed...

Might as well preserve snow for their customers...

That's the logic i perceive from their statement.

To be clear the article was not about MRG, I found it via MRG's post on their Facebook page.

I think MRG actually had a video on their FB page a couple days ago that they shared that someone had taken after skinning up the hill.

 

[steamboat1]

If the mountain wants to make a mountain out of a molehill, they are in their right to kick skinners off the mountains... and they'll earn a major black eye, negative press, and lost revenue in doing so.

I don't know about that, take Snowbird & Alta for instance. Alta has no adversity to people hiking/skinning the mountain while Snowbird has a strict policy of no hiking/skinning. It doesn't seem to affect Snowbirds business & I don't hear any negative commentary about them having this policy.

 

[snowmonster]

To be clear the article was not about MRG, I found it via MRG's post on their Facebook page.

I think MRG actually had a video on their FB page a couple days ago that they shared that someone had taken after skinning up the hill.

FWIW, the same things were said in the recent issue of Stowe magazine. I think they even quoted the same Stowe employees.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't know about that, take Snowbird & Alta for instance. Alta has no adversity to people hiking/skinning the mountain while Snowbird has a strict policy of no hiking/skinning. It doesn't seem to affect Snowbirds business & I don't hear any negative commentary about them having this policy.

If that is Snowbird's policy, I have not seen them enforce it at all while the mountain is open. I see lots of folks skinning and snowshoeing up the main runs...including Chip's, Big Emma, and Election yesterday. Folks who skin/snowshoe up Big Emma traverse to Mid-Gad Restaurant are really taking their lives in their hands because that is a major bottleneck for traffic and is already too narrow.

Now in the pre-season I heard that Snowbird had patrollers based at the bottom and stopping people from skinning up because of avalanche danger. The day that Jamie Pierre died, Snowbird was stopping folks from hiking, hence why everyone went to Alta. Pierre and his colleague skinned up Alta to access Snowbird because of the patrol presence.

 

[steamboat1]

If that is Snowbird's policy, I have not seen them enforce it at all while the mountain is open. I see lots of folks skinning and snowshoeing up the main runs...including Chip's, Big Emma, and Election yesterday. Folks who skin/snowshoe up Big Emma traverse to Mid-Gad Restaurant are really taking their lives in their hands because that is a major bottleneck for traffic and is already too narrow.

Now in the pre-season I heard that Snowbird had patrollers based at the bottom and stopping people from skinning up because of avalanche danger. The day that Jamie Pierre died, Snowbird was stopping folks from hiking, hence why everyone went to Alta. Pierre and his colleague skinned up Alta to access Snowbird because of the patrol presence.

TB I know that in the spring when they operated weekends only it said right on their website that no hiking is allowed during the week. Whether this is the policy only when they're closed or not I don't know.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB I know that in the spring when they operated weekends only it said right on their website that no hiking is allowed during the week. Whether this is the policy only when they're closed or not I don't know.

Maybe it is when they are closed and is "on paper" when they are open.

 

[riverc0il]

Best argument for MRG to not like uphill trafic: They rely on natural snow experience.

Poachers kill their market.

I know a lot of people in VT who ride MRG exclusively when the resort is closed...

Might as well preserve snow for their customers...

That's the logic i perceive from their statement.

Huh? MRG is one of the biggest promoters of skinning the ski area. Friedman's video snow reports often feature him shooting video halfway up the mountain after skiing or starting a run. When the lift isn't running, they even mention folks are skinning. MRG doesn't preserve anything as last Thursday and Friday can attest. MRG is all about love of the mountain and if people want it MRG says come and get it. It's great.

 

[riverc0il]

I don't know about that, take Snowbird & Alta for instance. Alta has no adversity to people hiking/skinning the mountain while Snowbird has a strict policy of no hiking/skinning. It doesn't seem to affect Snowbirds business & I don't hear any negative commentary about them having this policy.

There is a difference between having a strict policy and enforcing it. My suggestion was that if an area actually enforces its strict policy, there will be hell to pay. What ski area has ever enforced its strict policy 100%? Killington has been flakely and got a lot of flack for it this past October. On the flip side, the folks that are die hards at Killington give their mountain crap like its their business. :lol:

But if a mountain like Stowe, Smuggs, Jay, MRG, Cannon, Magic, etc. started kicking skinners off.. their would be online mutiny.